POST GAME Round 3 - Tigers vs Broncos

[pagey]

Exactly. People are assuming he is going to play the lock role like a lock plays today as practically another prop when he just wont. Every man and his dog knows Bennett has bought him here to be a ball playing lock. The only way it wont happen long term is if it just doesnt work.

Im not assuming he will play the typical lock type roll. Im saying we need a typical type lock to make more meters, like sharks (gallen)cowboys (lolo)storm (finucune).......
We have a been on the small side for awhile and need more go forward, why go backwards. Every man and his dog ...... really??? Please tell me how we all know this !!!!

 

[rnabokov]

Im not assuming he will play the typical lock type roll. Im saying we need a typical type lock to make more meters, like sharks (gallen)cowboys (lolo)storm (finucune).......
We have a been on the small side for awhile and need more go forward, why go backwards. Every man and his dog ...... really??? Please tell me how we all know this !!!!

I reckon the way forward is to bring something creative, and therefore quite different to the way the game is played and certainly to the way we have played, and play. I also reckon Bird will handle the defensive load well, partly because I feel he enjoys hitting hard when he tackles. He's a mongrel. Perfect for a middle 3rd defender and ball runner, and then our halves can run off him. Extra options. Just what we need, and Roberts will be a particular beneficiary of this style of play.

Way to go for mine

 

[Number6]

About McCullough, I know everyone is proud of him making around 60 tackles a game, but IMO he should be making at least 15 less. It stiffles his attack. I'd rather have so meone else pick up that tackling workrate and have McCullough sharper in attack.

It's the same with Jake Friend from the last couple of years too, feels like they are trying to out tackle each other and it hurts their attacking games. Cam Smith averages less than them I believe, and so did Michael Ennis in 2016, and they were best hookers of the year pretty much.

Exactly my thoughts. Defence is vital but can’t have your first point in attack so buggered whole attacking structure is spoiled. Result will be vicious circle of more defence anyway. Don’t see the obsession with an 80 minute, 50+ tackle hooker.

It’s nice for saving a interchanges but someone has to take some load off him if he stays on. Get Bird into dummy half for 10 mins before halftime and 5 mins in second half to run dual hookers, a couple more runs from dummy half from Roberts and Isakko (get Hodges coaching that) and get some of the bench forwards eating more tackles and outside backs chasing hard from marker inside other teams 20.

 

[Wolfie]

Im not assuming he will play the typical lock type roll. Im saying we need a typical type lock to make more meters, like sharks (gallen)cowboys (lolo)storm (finucune).......
We have a been on the small side for awhile and need more go forward, why go backwards. Every man and his dog ...... really??? Please tell me how we all know this !!!!

Maybe its just me then :D

Honestly, i think its obvious we arent going to be paying a center the money he is going to get. He is going to become a key component somwhere where he will see a lot of the ball, and from what i heard it will be lock, especially when you look at the positions Bird can play. Whether people like it or not, Boyd is a lock in at full back, he is going nowhere, same as Milf at five eighth. That really only leaves lock imo.

Also, just wondering why we need a lock to make more meters? If he plays the way i believe we will be playing, we wont be looking for a metre making lock. If we dont change our style, i'd agree we need a JT2/Finucane type lock, but i really dont believe we will be playing the same way if Bird goes to lock.

 

[Wolfie]

I reckon the way forward is to bring something creative, and therefore quite different to the way the game is played and certainly to the way we have played, and play. I also reckon Bird will handle the defensive load well, partly because I feel he enjoys hitting hard when he tackles. He's a mongrel. Perfect for a middle 3rd defender and ball runner, and then our halves can run off him. Extra options. Just what we need, and Roberts will be a particular beneficiary of this style of play.

Way to go for mine

I wish i could remember where i read or heard Bennett say it, but it was along the lines of going back in time to bring back a style of play he likes where the lock was a ball player, i have a feeling it was around the time he rejoined but i just cant remember.

 

[Jedhead]

• The contentious penalty was only scrutinised because of its timing. But let's be honest the Tiges were guilty of throwing several forward passes, played a number of tunnel balls and got away with it, and how can Benji drop a ball in front of his feet while facing our try line and not get pinged for a knockon? They got their fair share of let offs. Theyve come out and said it was an incorrect call, but again this was because of pressure from the whinging Gould and co on channel nine. Gould is delusional if he thinks he's promoting the game. All he is doing is playing to his own agenda. Klein was reffingaccording to an edict sent out by his bosses. This means he can't have a 'feel' for the game and ref accordingly. They whole CH 9 team coverage is predicated on creating faux controversy, it's beginning to put me off the game. Loved Rab's first name check of Nikorama! BTW. He has lost it totally.

 

[Thelmus]

From what I saw on Friday, bird working hard in tackles as a lock will be the least of our problems. what we need is direction and control. Maguire plays like a front rower now. The only difference is he wears a 13 and plays more minutes. He tries to be a pivot in the twenty but his offload and capacity to read attack limit his effectiveness.
whilst having one less front rower might limit the capacity of initial go forward. right now that job is to compensate for the limited effectiveness of the front rowers we have. They just have to get better. Bennet has never been one to compensate a weakness at the expense of a strength. I don't know when it was decided that the limitations of creativity were subservient to field position but that kind of thinking has to stop.
The Broncos that won premierships did not let being stuck even in their own twenty an excuse to give away a shot at breaking the line. Many a time balls were spread across the field to break down defences. It's the kind of thinking that is missing now. We simply don't have the skills or confidence to do so, but that doesn't mean we need to settle for the kind of play a Melbourne might do.
They do so because of their forward pack and it suits limited creativity of outside backs. We should be looking to our strengths. How many times do we really mention their centres' passing skills? never.
It all comes from their spine.
we have creative players. we have fast players like Roberts, We have skilful second rowers. A player like Bird if he can handle the defensive load will add to that but only if our whole mindset changes in the attitude and way we play.
It starts by working to a plan. Adhoc play of lockyer, walters etc. worked because it was built upon direction. knowing when kicks happened. Knowing who was kicking and knowing where it was kicked. The line stood deep at times in the oppositions half and even in their own because both halves saw and knew of a weakness.
Do ours even talk?
Milford plays his role. Knik does his. Do either know what the other is doing at the end of sets. How do they help each other? What of our other backs. They seem to follow a familiar set of roles, but do they know if a plan changes? If they talk, then they should know how to back each other. be there when forwards are breathing down their partner's necks. Centres knowing when milf runs and backing him. wingers too.
To me, these things are both easy to fix (in the sense that it just requires players to communicate) but also damn hard because it requires sometimes a level of trust. A centre support milf on a run might not be in position if it goes south and the opposition gets it. Its then the wingers, knowing what happens react accordingly.
In short, all this starts with knowing at a start of a set what you aim to achieve. You're in your twenty, but the opposition is fresher than you. do you charge it up for 5 tackles, and kick it dead, or throw it wide, knowing there's a weakness with one their backs hurt? The decision depends on a number of factors: whos leading, by how much, time remaining etc. and you can pick the right plan and still end up with egg on your face if a pass is dropped or the kick comes off badly. But simply playing one up rucks, with the opposition expecting it and belting a poor kick down their most creative player's throats with room to move might not cut it (our current plan). Sometime it will be right (if the kick is good), but not always.

 

[Super Freak]

how can Benji drop a ball in front of his feet while facing our try line and not get pinged for a knockon?

Because it's not a knock on if it's a pass.

 

[pagey]

I reckon the way forward is to bring something creative, and therefore quite different to the way the game is played and certainly to the way we have played, and play. I also reckon Bird will handle the defensive load well, partly because I feel he enjoys hitting hard when he tackles. He's a mongrel. Perfect for a middle 3rd defender and ball runner, and then our halves can run off him. Extra options. Just what we need, and Roberts will be a particular beneficiary of this style of play.

Way to go for mine

Not if we don't have feild position, can't do much then. Every team will run big bodies at him. Yeah he might create a little more but he can do it from center and also not become a tackling machine.

 

[Jedhead]

Because it's not a knock on if it's a pass.

If it's considered a pass then it's a forward pass and so he should still have got pinged.

 

[Super Freak]

If it's considered a pass then it's a forward pass and so he should still have got pinged.

It wasn't even a forward pass. Backwards from the hands and it didn't even bounce forward.

The only thing wrong with it was that it was a shocking pass.

 

[WASSHHH]

You're certainly trying way too hard for someone without a vendetta. I'm just unsure whether it's about Gillett or something personal, given your insistence on making this all about me...
You want a debate? Make it about the opinion, and not about its author or what you think drives him.

Since 2014, Gillett has had Hunt and Kodi next to him. Who are these other 4 or so halfbacks he's had inside him according to you?

Cordner is an excellent backrower without a doubt, but you're off your head when you say Gillett just participated, what with gaining Man of the Match honors and scoring tries in both the Origin Arena and in the World cup in the last couple of years. Besides, you're comparing Gillo to the only guy who has a justified claim to beat him as the best backrower in the code. Not showing your hand at all here...

If Moose isn't demanding the ball on 4th and 5th tackle, it will go to someone else, ANYONE else! Of course, Macca shares the responsibility here as well.
Who should it go to on 4th and 5th? I'm sure you know the answer to this, but it should be the first receiver... you know, the guy with the no. 7 on his back.

Should I just ignore Lodge's issues because of the raw deal he's getting from the media?
Yes, he is definitely bringing something we needed. Doesn't mean he doesn't need to improve the way he peels off tackles and gets back to the line, as he is making it too easy for the opposition to gain meters just by using him as cover. He has done this in every game this season so far, and multiple times last night.
I'm not asking for him to be dropped or even lose his starting spot, only for improvement in that one aspect of his game that is letting him down. I'm sure that will improve with time though.

With the exception of Boyd (because I demand much more of the captain) and KNik (because I demand much more from a halfback), no player deviated a lot from what I expect from each position last night.
The differences in scores and their proximity, are based on what players did in positive (points added) and negative (points subtracted) terms, starting from 6, which would be my default initial value. Some were a bit better than others, that's all. You'll be hard pressed to ever see me give anyone a 10 though.

Btw, those scores are based on last night's game, not what I think of each player's merit to wear the jersey, or their history in the code. No one deserves to be dropped on one bad performance, and I have not ever implied any other way, unlike the way your Lockyer comment pretends to colour me.
P.S. This all could of course be total bias from me, as well as from those who happen to agree with me. :superhappythumbsup:

Fair call. I can see how my last post could come across as personal, but that was certainly not my intention. I guess in attempting to reinforce my point, I tried to use your own reasoning in examples against what you were saying. So, my apologies if I’ve come across personal.

And you’ll just have to take me at face value when I say that I DO NOT have an agenda against Gillett.

Indeed, I personally believe that currently, Gillett would be the first Bronco picked for rep teams (although I think McGuire is more consistent and Boyd circa '15, '16 was easily our premier player with respect to rep teams). With this though, comes the highest expectations. I guess what I am saying is, similarly to your heightened expectations of Boyd (which I agree with), Gillett simply must be held to the same lofty standards.

With that said, it certainly appears to me that you are scoring him, whether consciously or subconsciously, higher than the sum of his performance at the moment.
That or you’re scoring others too low.
If you read my original post, that's all I was trying to say.
Whilst I’m happy to be proven wrong, I just don’t agree that Gillett was the close to, or better, than Lodge, McGuire or Sims last night. Credit where its due, those guys played well. If Gillett gets a 7, those blokes all deserve at least 8's. They were that much better in their roles than Gillett was in his.
Which arcs back to my earlier point about people allowing their bias to cloud their judgement. That’s not a personal attack, but it also doesn’t make it any less true.

With respect to my Lodge and Lockyer example; you’ve provided reasoning as to why Lodge needs to improve those areas, and whilst I don’t agree it’s valid criticism based simply on the fact he is still so incredibly green in the NRL, they are reasons nonetheless.
What does strike me as strange though, is that you’re willing to hold Lodge accountable for his mistakes so early in his career whilst ignoring his inexperience, but still not criticise Gillett for his shortcomings, even though he is a seasoned veteran and walk-up start in all rep teams. I am not trying to be patronising, but does that make sense? I am, however, sorry if the Lockyer comment seemed a bit strong, it was only intended to be a grossly overstated simile, not a dig.

Moving on, I guess we will have to agree to disagree when it comes to Cordner and Gillett over the last couple of years. Which, as a Broncos fan is so frustrating, because I know Gillett can be every bit as good as him, if not better. Right now though, I just don’t think he’s close. But I do want to be clear, I was comparing Gillett to Cordner when I said he was only participating, not commenting on his place in the team as a whole. I stand by this. If I didn’t explain that well in my previous posts, I am more so trying to accentuate that Cordner continues to get better, Gillett continues to decline. That’s my main concern around Gillett, because we need him to fire if we're to get anywhere near the pointy end of any season in the next few years.

Regarding our halfbacks since 2014, quite simply, I was wrong. I thought both Prince and Wallace played in ‘14, but they both left at the end of ‘13. My mistake.
Benji did play 7 at times though last year, so if I didn’t get my years wrong, that would have made 5 - but obviously, that’s all academic.

I must ask, as we clearly disagree on a few things I am genuinely interested to hear your thoughts; what are you expecting from the someone or anyone else on the 4th or 5th tackle that McGuire isn’t providing? I am not naive enough to think that McGuire simply rucking it up is the best option, but right now it may be our only option. I'd much rather that than have Milf, Kodi or Macca stink it up and get caught with the ball, or give it to a flat-footed bloke who isn't expecting it only to lose ground, or put in some half-arsed afterthought kick, as these seem to be our only go to moves when McGuire isn't there.

Again, sorry if anything previously came across as personal or anything in this post does. I can't stand keyboard warriors turning discussions, that are simply differences of opinion, into personal attacks. So if you think I am doing that, let me know. Cheers.

 

[Jedhead]

It wasn't even a forward pass. Backwards from the hands and it didn't even bounce forward.

The only thing wrong with it was that it was a shocking pass.

It didn't even remotely look like a pass. He dropped it cold. But it's all water under the bridge and the point I was trying to make was that the Tiges stuffed up in many other areas and got away with it. So what goes round comes round. And CH 9 are killing the game by creating controversy over incidents that are so inane it's steadily ruining the game as a spectacle.

 

[Super Freak]

Some of the criticism of Boyd is a bit over the top and unwarranted.

He made an error, but apart from that he made plenty of metres, made some good runs and he was constantly revving the players up. He certainly wasn't lacking in communication last night and in regards to that try, he was forced to come into the defensive line.

Some people may have a bit of an agenda against Boyd. He wasn't great, but he wasn't as bad as some people are making him out to be.

 

[Foordy]

Some of the criticism of Boyd is a bit over the top and unwarranted.

He made an error, but apart from that he made plenty of metres, made some good runs and he was constantly revving the players up. He certainly wasn't lacking in communication last night and in regards to that try, he was forced to come into the defensive line.

Some people may have a bit of an agenda against Boyd. He wasn't great, but he wasn't as bad as some people are making him out to be.

Over the top, and unwarranted criticism is part of the official BHQ scapegoat job description

 

[Painin the Haas]

You just mentioned it!!

.......that season

 

[Number6]

Some of the criticism of Boyd is a bit over the top and unwarranted.

He made an error, but apart from that he made plenty of metres, made some good runs and he was constantly revving the players up. He certainly wasn't lacking in communication last night and in regards to that try, he was forced to come into the defensive line.

Some people may have a bit of an agenda against Boyd. He wasn't great, but he wasn't as bad as some people are making him out to be.

Is it an agenda when you honestly believe someone is overpaid, overrated and given special protection at the expense of the team? Guy has delivered for half a season in 3 at the expense of a superior fullback option and the cost of the only true halfback we have developed in over a decade.

If he wants to show he truly values the team and play wing or centre ( even 5/8) or even sit out a goddam game cause he can barely walk then happy to revisit that opinion.

He wasn’t that bad last night and made a few solid runs but if that’s the standard then hope we all enjoy watching a Storm Cowboys GF.

 

[Super Freak]

Is it an agenda when you honestly believe someone is overpaid, overrated and given special protection at the expense of the team? Guy has delivered for half a season in 3 at the expense of a superior fullback option and the cost of the only true halfback we have developed in over a decade.

If he wants to show he truly values the team and play wing or centre ( even 5/8) or even sit out a goddam game cause he can barely walk then happy to revisit that opinion.

He wasn’t that bad last night and made a few solid runs but if that’s the standard then hope we all enjoy watching a Storm Cowboys GF.

Superior fullback option? Who? Milford?

Sure, Milford might be better in attack, but what about defence? Did any of you even watch his defence at the Raiders when he was playing fullback? It was shocking. He lacks the ability to organize which is a very important part of fullback. We might score a couple more tries but we will let more in, as well. And then who do we get to play 5/8?

Overpaid? Not really. What people fail to understand is that when the cap increases, so does player values. The money Boyd is on is pretty standard for a player of his standing.

Delivered for half a season? Yeah, have you watched him since he came back?

He has been a mixed bag lately, but he hasn't been as bad as people are making him out to be. He has played more good games than bad and right now, he is our best option.