State Of Origin - General Discussion

Porthoz said:
They are not HIS selections, they are the selections of the Qld selectors panel, which includes besides Walters, Darren Lockyer and Gene Miles, who chairs the panel.

Just for clarity, can you please name the players who he wrongly selected and who should have been there instead?
Click to expand...

Just my own opinion here but:

Game 1:

Holmes fb (after Slater was ruled out, not in the side originally)
Oates wing
Milford halfback
Morgan bench (I know he was originally)

Game 2:

Holmes wing
Gagai in to centre
Chambers out
Hunt bench
Hess out, Joffa in

Game 3:

1. Slater
2. Oates
3. Chambers (left)
4. Gagai (right)
5. Holmes
6. Munster
7. Milford
8. McGuire
9. Macca
10. Wallace
11. Kaufusi / Cooper
12. Su'A (I know this may not have been possible with the concussion) / Kaufusi
13. Arrow

14. Segeyaro
15. Joffa
16. Papalii
17. Welch
 
Porthoz said:
FTR, the shot was not at WB...
Click to expand...
Ok, I probably read it incorrectly. I now assume you directed it the WB apologists or at least those that would make allowances for WBs team but not for Kevvies. My bad, I was wrong.
 
Lockysillegitimatechild said:
They are obviously HIS selections. He won the last 2 series and the side hasnt really changed (outside of injuries and retirements) since game 2 last year, when it was stated by many people in the media walters bended to the selection panel in game 1 and got his way in game 2. Additionally, if the selection panel got their way in the first 2 games dont you think after losing the series they would have given him the freedom to make changes? Much like he did last year, instead he has made only forced changes.

oates needed to be in the team, with such a weak pack walters should have either made the tough choice (just like he did in game 2 last year AGAINST oates, who was one of our better performing players in the game-for everything holmes and gagai do (or 30 year old chambers, wasnt boyd dropped for being around that age? Or was he out of form? Not like any other players of course)) or be the bench utility. He wont win us a game but our pack needed more help then what holmes, chambers or gagai could provide. Why was milford there if he wasnt going to use him till the game was over anyway? Why can he only make a tough call against oates. Hes exactly what we needed..

I would never let wallace wear a queensland jersey again after the 2 performances he has put in this series. The fact he didnt get much game time and never got back on says even walters wasnt happy with it. Why was he selected agin? What message does that send to other players?! In his place i would have put ANY forward we had. Offa, welch, anyone! Even bloody sims would have more of a go at least.

Cooper could be replaced by sua this last game or papalii to the edge in the first 2 games. Whys he nervous about trying that when the series over? and anyway Cooper is 31, and has played 5 origins, and is among the worst second rowers in the nrl this year. He dropped thaiday, boyd and scott for being out of form and over 30, yet they have 70 origins between them and have proven themselves time and time again. Why not cooper who hasnt shown anymore at origin level then what oates has, in fact, he has shown less, and has only 1 more game “experience” in origin.



And hunt dropped i understand, but again, hes doing it half/half. Publicly backed him pre-series and said its his team, then backs him multiple times after both poor performances, then drops him... but only to the bench. Stand by your choices EITHER WAY walters.


Also, i would have selected boyd, scott and i wouldnt have dropped thaiday last year. In their place he has brought in wallace and glasby-if these 2 are our future we are in trouble, and if they arent our future (i bloody hope so) why are we dropping players WE KNOW can do the job. State of origin is not nrl, its totally different football. Unless players have extrodinary form or talent you never pick them over players who have done the job nearly 30 times before, its that simple. Meninga and bennett understood this.

Either pull the trigger on all of them like fittler has or go with the tried and true. Its half assed what he has done and we are paying the price for it. The blues not only have a better squad this series (due to dropping experienced players), but they are also in a much better position moving forward (due to not dropping all the ageing players like they did). Our team sits somewhere in the middle, either do a bennett (2001) or do a meninga. It reeks of trying to please everyone and not having the strength to back himself, which is even worse if you are saying the selection panel over-powered him after he has the 2-0 series win record prior to this series. In fact i think thats evem worse if he truly let that happen tbh, especially after losing the first 2 games, keep him away from our club if thats the case because theres alot more political lobbying and constant pressure in your job at the broncos then queensland. No way he could have dealt with the matt lodge situation or from rumblings he has lost the dressing room.

My team game 3 if he didnt dump the veterans alreay (he cant go back on his word now so the next team will be a youth team)

1. Slater
2. Boyd
3. Gagai
4. Chambers (only due to inglis injury, has some runs on the board + only for an injury replacement only)
5. Holmes
6. Munster
7. Hunt (only because he came out and backed him time and time again)
8. Napa
9. Macca
10. Mcguire
11. Guerra (much better form then cooper, and actually more experienced then cooper in origin, and younger lol)
12. Kafusi
13. Arrow

14. Papalii
15. Thaiday
16. Oates
17. Offa

Scott would get on the bench if not injured.

Much more experienced unit


Or, if he wanted to go “the future”

1. Slater (farewell)
2. Holmes
3. Munster
4. Gagai
5. Oates
6. Milford
7. Hunt (unless he didnt back him publicly-then taylor)
8. Napa
9. Macca
10. Mcguire
11. Papalii
12. Kafusi
13. Arrow

14. Offa
15. Welch
16. Sua
17. Glasby

Top team has 3 players from teams outside the 8, bottom team has 2 players from outside the top 8. Walters team has 7... 7! Nsw have 3. During our golden run weve been lucky to have 2 or 3.

The top team has 50+ more origin games experience then walters team. The bottom team has only 1 player who will retire in the next 3 years, walters team has 3...

For me, dont make rules for some selections/dropping players- but only apply them when it suits you. Stick to your convictions.
Click to expand...
There are things here I agree with, others absolutely not, starting with your assumptions that all decisions are exclusively Walters' choice, as if the other selectors would have no say.

Sorry, there is no way Thaiday or Boyd shouldn't have been dropped, nor would I replace anyone from last year's team for Guerra. I'd have Cooper ahead of him 10 times out of 10, and again, Cooper isn't someone who deserves any type of blame for this series, what with being the forward who actually made the least mistakes and most meters for Qld in game 2.

Incidentally, the issues I've had so far with selection, were:

Scott was probably hard done by, but last year's pack held his own without him, he was coming back from a serious knee injury, and IIRC he was suspended for game 1 anyway.
Oates was probably hard done by, and I probably would've had him on the bench.
Milford was definitely hard done by in the way he was misused in game one.

The fact I don't believe Walters deserves the criticism put onto him this series, doesn't mean I agree with everything.
FTR, this is the team I would pick for game 3:

1- Slater (deserves a farewell)
2- Oates
3- Munster
4- Gagai
5- Holmes
6- Milford
7- Taylor (give the kid exposure in a dead rubber, even though he isn't Origin ready)
8- McGuire
9- McCullough
10- Napa
11- Cooper (has done nothing wrong to be dropped for game three)
12- Kaufusi
13- Arrow

14- Hunt
15- Papalii
16- Wallace
17- Ofahengaue

Next year and onwards:

1- Ponga
2- Holmes
3- Inglis (Munster to move there once GI calls it quits)
4- Morgan
5- Gagai
6- Munster (Milford to move there once Munster moves to left centre)
7- Taylor (if he is killing it, otherwise Milford until Ash matures a bit)
8- McGuire
9- McCullough/Segeyaro
10- Napa
11- Kaufusi
12- Gillett
13- Arrow

14- Hunt/Segeyaro
15- Ofahengaue
16- Wallace
17- Su'a/Oates/Hess/Welch/Glasby is pretty much where our depth stops at the moment.

Of course, should Matt Scott return to his barnstorming best, he would immediately enter calculations, but his age and injury history for the past 2 years, make that doubtful.

As much as I love him on the wing at the Broncos, I can't select Oates ahead of Gagai or Holmes, unless either of the former is shitting the bed. I also worry about selecting him on the bench, as he could be a defensive liability playing close to the ruck.

P.S. I deliberately omitted DCE from this whole talk, because I fully expect him to be quartered in game 3, and disappear from maroon contention forever and ever.
 
Last edited:
Porthoz said:
There are things here I agree with, others absolutely not, starting with your assumptions that all decisions are exclusively Walters' choice, as if the other selectors would have no say.

Sorry, there is no way Thaiday or Boyd shouldn't have been dropped, nor would I replace anyone from last year's team for Guerra. I'd have Cooper ahead of him 10 times out of 10, and again, Cooper isn't someone who deserves any type of blame for this series, what with being the forward who actually made the least mistakes and most meters for Qld in game 2.

Incidentally, the issues I've had so far with selection, were:

Scott was probably hard done by, but last year's pack held his own without him, he was coming back from a serious knee injury, and IIRC he was suspended for game 1 anyway.
Oates was probably hard done by, and I probably would've had him on the bench.
Milford was definitely hard done by in the way he was misused in game one.

The fact I don't believe Walters deserves the criticism put onto him this series, doesn't mean I agree with everything.
FTR, this is the team I would pick for game 3:

1- Slater (deserves a farewell)
2- Oates
3- Munster
4- Gagai
5- Holmes
6- Milford
7- Taylor (give the kid exposure in a dead rubber, even though he isn't Origin ready)
8- McGuire
9- McCullough
10- Napa
11- Cooper (has done nothing wrong to be dropped for game three)
12- Kaufusi
13- Arrow

14- Hunt
15- Papalii
16- Wallace
17- Ofahengaue

Next year and onwards:

1- Ponga
2- Holmes
3- Inglis (Munster to move there once GI calls it quits)
4- Morgan
5- Gagai
6- Munster (Milford to move there once Munster moves to left centre)
7- Taylor (if he is killing it, otherwise Milford until Ash matures a bit)
8- McGuire
9- McCullough/Segeyaro
10- Napa
11- Kaufusi
12- Gillett
13- Arrow

14- Hunt/Segeyaro
15- Ofahengaue
16- Wallace
17- Su'a/Oates/Hess/Welch/Glasby is pretty much where our depth stops at the moment.

Of course, should Matt Scott return to his barnstorming best, he would immediately enter calculations, but his age and injury history for the past 2 years, make that doubtful.

As much as I love him on the wing at the Broncos, I can't select Oates ahead of Gagai or Holmes, unless either of the former is shitting the bed. I also worry about selecting him on the bench, as he could be a defensive liability playing close to the ruck.

P.S. I deliberately omitted DCE from this whole talk, because I fully expect him to be quartered in game 3, and disappear from maroon contention forever and ever.
Click to expand...
I actually completly agree with that side for next year except for wallace, like i said, i believe whether he is the best option or not has become irrelevant purely because a message needs to be sent to other players “you cant play like that in our jersey on multiple occaissons, particularly after talking it up” its ben creagh level pea heartedness

I especially agree with the milford in for taylor if he continues to lack consistency and doesnt grow his game. The other point is oates, agree that he probably gets hard done by again next year no matter his form but the question is why? Walters dug his own grave here (surely you cant say this wasnt his decision? He publicly praised holmes dozens of times, hes a favourite of his). Holmes and gagai need to stuff up to not get selected, why wasnt oates given this same latitude that so many others are currently getting? He gives our team so much more then a standard winger. He shoudlnt have ever been dropped and this shouldnt even be a debate, the fact he has been dropped and its debatable a year later speaks volumes. If we won last year with oates in the team would there be a debate going on this year about his spot on the side? I doubt it, itd at least be a lot less

You may disagree with the boyd and thaiday selections, but my question is, would bennett or meninga d what walters did? The answer is no, a big no. Origin isnt nrl, experience (20+ games) beats outsolid nrl form 99% of the time.

Cooper has done nothing wrong... just like boyd, thaiday and scott. Yet the reason they got dropped was age and form. So why isnt cooper? “Because we have better options”... so wallace played better then scott or thaiday eould have in ANY of his prigin games? No way he has

I also thought about segeyaro but only as a bench utility

Ive got no doubt the selection panel had a say, but its his team. After 2 series wins there is no doubt he would have got the final say, and if he didnt that says more about him then if he did! I dont want someone that weak in making decisions to run my club! And if he did, they are terrible, its honestly lose-lose in my eyes because one speaks about his character and strength to coach the broncos, the other about his decision making. Whether he listened to them or not is irrellevant really. He deserves the criticism, that doesnt mean to say the selection panel dont either.
 
Man, this is weird, you are both not as far apart on these issue Les as it would seem and I agree almost completely with both sides.
 
Last edited:
Lockysillegitimatechild said:
The other point is oates, agree that he probably gets hard done by again next year no matter his form but the question is why? Walters dug his own grave here (surely you cant say this wasnt his decision? He publicly praised holmes dozens of times, hes a favourite of his). Holmes and gagai need to stuff up to not get selected, why wasnt oates given this same latitude that so many others are currently getting? He gives our team so much more then a standard winger. He shoudlnt have ever been dropped and this shouldnt even be a debate, the fact he has been dropped and its debatable a year later speaks volumes. If we won last year with oates in the team would there be a debate going on this year about his spot on the side? I doubt it, itd at least be a lot less
Click to expand...
Oates was "dropped" because Slater was selected for game 2 and Boyd was moved to the wing. You could argue that Boyd should've been dropped instead, and I would agree.
This year, despite his value for the team, I have no issue with Holmes or Gagai being selected ahead of him. In hindsight though, it might have been better to move Gagai into the centres, maintain Holmes on the right, and select Oates on the left wing.

Lockysillegitimatechild said:
You may disagree with the boyd and thaiday selections, but my question is, would bennett or meninga d what walters did? The answer is no, a big no. Origin isnt nrl, experience (20+ games) beats outsolid nrl form 99% of the time.
Click to expand...

The Bennett of old would definitely have done it (except to Boyd, but that's a different discussion). The current Bennett possibly not... which I would definitely have disagreed with.
Whether Meninga would've done it is a good question. He wasn't quite put in such a position at any time during his tenure.

Lockysillegitimatechild said:
Cooper has done nothing wrong... just like boyd, thaiday and scott. Yet the reason they got dropped was age and form. So why isnt cooper? “Because we have better options”... so wallace played better then scott or thaiday eould have in ANY of his prigin games? No way he has
Click to expand...

There was no better player than Cooper for the left backrow edge available (including Papalii, who was in dreadful form, all the way to being demoted to reggies).
Slater, Morgan, Ponga, Holmes, Gagai, Oates are far superior to the current Boyd. This shouldn't even be a discussion.
Likewise with Thaiday, pretty much any other forward I listed above would be a better selection than him imo.

Lockysillegitimatechild said:
Ive got no doubt the selection panel had a say, but its his team. After 2 series wins there is no doubt he would have got the final say, and if he didnt that says more about him then if he did! I dont want someone that weak in making decisions to run my club! And if he did, they are terrible, its honestly lose-lose in my eyes because one speaks about his character and strength to coach the broncos, the other about his decision making. Whether he listened to them or not is irrellevant really. He deserves the criticism, that doesnt mean to say the selection panel dont either.
Click to expand...
These are your assumptions, but as I said, I don't think the selections were that bad to start with, although I don't agree with everything.
After a disastrous game in Melbourne in terms of defense, and arguably a pretty dire use of Milford, Walters team came out firing in game 2, was overal the better team in that game despite all the circumstances against, and I struggle to find anything to blame Walters for.
More importantly, the selection panel seems to have got the message that Hunt isn't a halfback. Although I believe selecting DCE is a step backwards (he isn't made of the fabric necessary to be an Origin player imo), it could be a genius move and give us what we've lacked after losing Thurston and Cronk.

Sproj said:
Man, this is weird, you are both not as far apart on these issue Les as it would seem and I agree almost completely with both sides.
Click to expand...
We keep going in circles, but it seems what we have vastly different opinions on how important certain selections are, the coach's approach to those, and what the team does on the field, which is by far the most important aspect of a coach's job in my opinion.
I expected Qld to be overal much worse than they have been, even in game 1, and that is definitely Walters' merit.
 
Porthoz said:
After a disastrous game in Melbourne in terms of defense, and arguably a pretty dire use of Milford, Walters team came out firing in game 2, was overal the better team in that game despite all the circumstances against, and I struggle to find anything to blame Walters for.
Click to expand...

Arguably how? Or are you implying the team was going well enough that a change may not have been the best move?
I'd have loved to have seen what Milford could have done with the time given to Ponga.
 
Harry Sack said:
Arguably how? Or are you implying the team was going well enough that a change may not have been the best move?
I'd have loved to have seen what Milford could have done with the time given to Ponga.
Click to expand...
I don't think Milford can play the way Ponga did in game 2, and I think Milford shouldn't have come in as a last minute saviour with everything to lose (which is my biggest problem with his utilisation in game 1), which was pretty much akin to throwing him under the bus.
He can realistically only replace a half or the fullback, but our ruck defense was by far the biggest issue we had to contend with, not the spine, and we were not quite ever in a position to utilise Anthony effectively in that game.

I wouldn't use Milford as a utility at all in the Qld team to be honest. Either he is in as a starter, or he is altogether out imo. Hunt, Morgan, Munster or Segs would be much better utilities than Milford (or Taylor for that matter).
 
My theory is its ok to lose every now and then. Not that the players were trying to lose, I'm sure they were doing their best, but you learn a lot more from losses than from wins.

Personally I'm a ok with losing this series. The transition period was always going to happen and even if we lose 3 0 it's not a big deal. Life goes on and it makes next years series a lot more interesting.
 
Porthoz said:
I don't think Milford can play the way Ponga did in game 2, and I think Milford shouldn't have come in as a last minute saviour with everything to lose (which is my biggest problem with his utilisation in game 1), which was pretty much akin to throwing him under the bus.
He can realistically only replace a half or the fullback, but our ruck defense was by far the biggest issue we had to contend with, not the spine, and we were not quite ever in a position to utilise Anthony effectively in that game.

I wouldn't use Milford as a utility at all in the Qld team to be honest. Either he is in as a starter, or he is altogether out imo. Hunt, Morgan, Munster or Segs would be much better utilities than Milford (or Taylor for that matter).
Click to expand...

I think it's very similar to Bowen, for a while there was a perception just have him in the 17 give him 10 minutes- oh why didn't he do what he did for the Cows.
 
Porthoz said:
Oates was "dropped" because Slater was selected for game 2 and Boyd was moved to the wing. You could argue that Boyd should've been dropped instead, and I would agree.
This year, despite his value for the team, I have no issue with Holmes or Gagai being selected ahead of him. In hindsight though, it might have been better to move Gagai into the centres, maintain Holmes on the right, and select Oates on the left wing.



The Bennett of old would definitely have done it (except to Boyd, but that's a different discussion). The current Bennett possibly not... which I would definitely have disagreed with.
Whether Meninga would've done it is a good question. He wasn't quite put in such a position at any time during his tenure.



There was no better player than Cooper for the left backrow edge available (including Papalii, who was in dreadful form, all the way to being demoted to reggies).
Slater, Morgan, Ponga, Holmes, Gagai, Oates are far superior to the current Boyd. This shouldn't even be a discussion.
Likewise with Thaiday, pretty much any other forward I listed above would be a better selection than him imo.


These are your assumptions, but as I said, I don't think the selections were that bad to start with, although I don't agree with everything.
After a disastrous game in Melbourne in terms of defense, and arguably a pretty dire use of Milford, Walters team came out firing in game 2, was overal the better team in that game despite all the circumstances against, and I struggle to find anything to blame Walters for.
More importantly, the selection panel seems to have got the message that Hunt isn't a halfback. Although I believe selecting DCE is a step backwards (he isn't made of the fabric necessary to be an Origin player imo), it could be a genius move and give us what we've lacked after losing Thurston and Cronk.


We keep going in circles, but it seems what we have vastly different opinions on how important certain selections are, the coach's approach to those, and what the team does on the field, which is by far the most important aspect of a coach's job in my opinion.
I expected Qld to be overal much worse than they have been, even in game 1, and that is definitely Walters' merit.
Click to expand...
Youre 100% right, we are going in circles....
 
Last edited:
I can't get past the thought that we were never going to win this series when you find out that NSW are making a movie about their campaign.
I mean why would you make a movie at all if you thought you could lose.
Tin hat theory but its got a stink .
 
Of course, they chose the year that Cronk, Smith and Thurston have retired.
 
New Posts

Unread

Watch

YouTube
0 0 737
1:31:55
NRL Round 9, 2002 - Brisbane Broncos vs Northern Eagles
View full media list »

Active Now

  • Mustafur
Total: 118 (members: 2, guests: 116)
Robots: 229
Top
  AdBlock Message
Please consider adding BHQ to your Adblock Whitelist. We do our best to make sure it doesn't affect your experience on the website, and the funds help us pay server and software costs.