The Wayne Bennett Super thread!

[Anonymous person]

I didn't say anything about last year AP, and I certainly didn't mention anything about the minor premiership in 2011

I am sorry but that argument is silly

You are not a great coach because you got a team to the minor premiership, nor are you a great coach because you win one premiership

C'mon mate, not even you believe that

Greatness is measured over time, against adversity, and an equal playing field

What Bellamy has done post the cap saga is really good no question

But he is yet to stand the test of time and win multiple premierships across multiple teams to be ranked alongside the true greats

Perhaps he will as I have already said, but he has not proven anything yet, except that he can win by cheating and lose at the highest level when not cheating (SOO)

And given his post cap saga success, he has proven he has the potential to one day be thought of as one of the greats

its silly? so winning a premiership and a minor premiership in the 2 years after that salary cap scandal doesnt prove anything? geez, tough crowd.

"But he is yet to stand the test of time and win multiple premierships across multiple teams to be ranked alongside the true greats"

oh so now you have to win with multiple teams to be considered great? lol pull the other one. how many premierships did lockyer win in a team that wasnt brisbane? guess hes not a great.

bellamy is retiring soon, hes said as much. he said this will most likely be his last contract. hes 53, will be on the wrong end of his 50s when his contract is up, has won a few premierships, coached the most dominant team in the modern game, coached the team that pretty much single handedly redefined how the game is played, coached origin, went through the salary cap scandal, lost some premierships, came back and won a premiership with the possibly of more.....i think hes allowed to retire and still be considered a great.

 

[Nashy]

No doubt about him being great, but his name will always be associated with a team that cheated for years.

 

[Kimlo]

He's a cheat. Tainted success.

 

[john1420]

its silly? so winning a premiership and a minor premiership in the 2 years after that salary cap scandal doesnt prove anything? geez, tough crowd.

"But he is yet to stand the test of time and win multiple premierships across multiple teams to be ranked alongside the true greats"

oh so now you have to win with multiple teams to be considered great? lol pull the other one. how many premierships did lockyer win in a team that wasnt brisbane? guess hes not a great.

bellamy is retiring soon, hes said as much. he said this will most likely be his last contract. hes 53, will be on the wrong end of his 50s when his contract is up, has won a few premierships, coached the most dominant team in the modern game, coached the team that pretty much single handedly redefined how the game is played, coached origin, went through the salary cap scandal, lost some premierships, came back and won a premiership with the possibly of more.....i think hes allowed to retire and still be considered a great.

as i already said, it proves he has the potential for greatness

He has shown some very positive signs, but we are talking about greatness here

Who are known as the coaching greats?

The names I hear thrown up are Bennett, Jack Gibson, and here and there Phil Gould

When you claim Bellamy is a great, you put him in with these guys

It is only fair then that he is measured against their records if he is to be called a great alongside them

WB; multiple premierships with multiple clubs, state of origin success, 20 plus year career

JG; multiple premierships with multiple clubs, state of origin success, 20 year career

PG; multiple premierships with multiple clubs, state of origin success, 16 year career

Now, CB: one premiership, state of origin failure, 10 years career (so far)


How you can mention them in the same breath boggles my mind

He is clearly talented and better than many other coaches going round, but he is not yet one of the greats


Now as for your ridiculous attempt to discredit my point about multiple clubs by bringing Lockyer into it; we are talking about coaches, not players, and the coaching records of the truly great coaches all share that trait so I thought it fair to measure your mate Craig by the standard that the greats themselves set

But if you want to be silly, OK, let's talk about Locky - no he did not have premiership success at different clubs but he did have success at club, state and national level - which is the same thing really, success with different teams

Remind me again how Craig went at Origin??

 

[john1420]

bellamy is retiring soon, hes said as much. he said this will most likely be his last contract. hes 53, will be on the wrong end of his 50s when his contract is up, has won a few premierships, coached the most dominant team in the modern game, coached the team that pretty much single handedly redefined how the game is played, coached origin, went through the salary cap scandal, lost some premierships, came back and won a premiership with the possibly of more.....i think hes allowed to retire and still be considered a great.

sorry, overlooked some points

he has not won a few premierships - he has won one

how do you define the modern game? I would think post super league is fair and if so, you will see that Brisbane is the most dominant team with 3 premierships, with Melbourne and Manly next with 2 each (though Craig only coached one of those two)

did he redefine how the game was played? probably agree with you on this, although he changed it for the worse :(

coached origin? - yes, but lost, unlike the truly great coaches of our time

salary cap scandal - went through or caused?

if he can be considered great, then Bennett and co are immortal, as their records eclipse bellamy's

 

[Anonymous person]

sorry, overlooked some points

he has not won a few premierships - he has won one

how do you define the modern game? I would think post super league is fair and if so, you will see that Brisbane is the most dominant team with 3 premierships, with Melbourne and Manly next with 2 each (though Craig only coached one of those two)

did he redefine how the game was played? probably agree with you on this, although he changed it for the worse :(

coached origin? - yes, but lost, unlike the truly great coaches of our time

salary cap scandal - went through or caused?

if he can be considered great, then Bennett and co are immortal, as their records eclipse bellamy's

No, he won he 2007 and 2009 premierships. They were then stripped from the records a few years later.

The modern game is 2001 onwards IMO. 2000 was kinda the end of an era. The switch from unlimited interchange completely changed the game.

And if you've watched footy since then you know Melbourne have been the dominant team. They have been the team to beat pretty much every year since what, 2005? Even. When another team wins the premiership, Melbourne have been the team to beat, the litmus test for how you're going. Number of premierships doesn't tell the whole story, especially when 2 are stripped from the record books.

You might think he changed the game for the worse, I disagree. He brought a level of tactics, strategy and genius game plans to the nrl that had not been seen before. Before it was just set plays, now it's set plays to combat/Eliot certain individuals players strengths and weaknesses, entire game plans to combat a teams strengths, etc. I love it, it's bringing intelligence to the game.

Origin coaching - unlike other coaches he came up against thurston, Lockyer, slater, inglis, smith, civoniceva, price, folau, and co all at once. They've won 7 in a row, maybe give them a bit more credit rather than saying that nsw lost because he's not a good coach.

Salary cap, found to have no knowledge of the rorting. Move on.

Bennet is a coaching immortal, never said he wasn't. Bellamy has been better than him since 2005-ish though.

 

[Dexter]

Seems like his genius game plans fall apart when he doesn't have the big 3 with him or even without Smith when they got belted 40 zip by Manly.

I'm happy to give him credit though, the fact is he has got those players and all he can do is coach accordingly.

 

[Anonymous person]

Smith is the most valuable player in the game. Take Lockyer out of the broncos in 2006 and Brisbane get walked over by the storm. Doesn't say anything about the coach.

 

[Dexter]

You can't say that for certain :D

 

[Anonymous person]

I saw the broncos play in 2006, I can say that for certain lol.

 

[john1420]

No, he won he 2007 and 2009 premierships. They were then stripped from the records a few years later.

No he did not win them. He stole them. They do not count. He did not win them with a legal team. He had a distinct advantage over opposition. You simply cannot count this in his achievements.

The modern game is 2001 onwards IMO. 2000 was kinda the end of an era. The switch from unlimited interchange completely changed the game.

That really is your personal definition there AP. I was trying to be generous with my post super league definition, but the media seems to refer to the modern game as anything past the 80's :)

And if you've watched footy since then you know Melbourne have been the dominant team. They have been the team to beat pretty much every year since what, 2005? Even. When another team wins the premiership, Melbourne have been the team to beat, the litmus test for how you're going. Number of premierships doesn't tell the whole story, especially when 2 are stripped from the record books.

The dominant cheating team, yes, but I don't count cheats

Salary cap, found to have no knowledge of the rorting. Move on.

it was found that that there was insufficient evidence to prove he knew, which is different to not actually knowing

if a coach does not know what his players are signing on for than he is incompetent, and i don't think he is

Bennet is a coaching immortal, never said he wasn't. Bellamy has been better than him since 2005-ish though.

Bellamy has had the better of Bennett since 05 but half of that time Bellamy's been cheating, so the results don't count

 

[Anonymous person]

No he did not win them. He stole them. They do not count. He did not win them with a legal team. He had a distinct advantage over opposition. You simply cannot count this in his achievements.

That really is your personal definition there AP. I was trying to be generous with my post super league definition, but the media seems to refer to the modern game as anything past the 80's :)

The dominant cheating team, yes, but I don't count cheats

it was found that that there was insufficient evidence to prove he knew, which is different to not actually knowing

if a coach does not know what his players are signing on for than he is incompetent, and i don't think he is

Bellamy has had the better of Bennett since 05 but half of that time Bellamy's been cheating, so the results don't count

well he did win them, i watched those games with my own 2 eyes. melbourne won them.

you might have been trying to be generous, but you really just went far back enough so the broncos had won the most premierships. i go by the actual game of rugby league and how it is played. 2001 is when how the game as it is now started being played.

"insufficient evidence" is one term for it. you know what another is? "no evidence". they found nothing to even remotely suggest that he knew about it. coaches dont draw up contracts. coaches dont sign player contracts. if a coach is told that a player is being offered $400k + $200k outside of the salary cap LEGALLY, why would he think that the managers got that $200k deal under the table? you do know that many players have 3rd party deals that are outside of the salary cap legally, dont you?

if melbourne were to win the premiership this year, going back to back, what would you say then? that hes not as good as bennett because he went back to back already 15 years ago? would you continue to bang on about bellamy being a cheat and the premierships "not counting"? somehow i think you would.

pretty much EVERY person in the know agrees that bellamy is the best coach in the game, has been for some time, with hasler coming in second. bennetts just not up there anymore. hasnt been for almost 10 years.

 

[Nashy]

Would you guys like me to make a Bellamy thread in league talk?

 

[Mr Fourex]

if melbourne were to win the premiership this year, going back to back, what would you say then? that hes not as good as bennett because he went back to back already 15 years ago? would you continue to bang on about bellamy being a cheat and the premierships "not counting"? somehow i think you would.

Yes, of course the Bellamy haters would .......Melbourne and Bellamy will never be considered "legit" until Smith, Slater and Cronk have been split up. Melbourne could win 5 premierships in a row and the epically arse hurt will still refuse to acknowledge that Craig Bellamy is an outstanding coach until he wins something without those 3 players.

Apparently "it's not fair" that Bellamy has talent like this to call on. :001_rolleyes:

How was our our side a few years ago.......was it just as unfair that the Broncs practically filled state of origin sides and were over flowing with talent?

 

[OXY-351]

pretty much EVERY person in the know agrees that bellamy is the best coach in the game, has been for some time, with hasler coming in second. bennetts just not up there anymore. hasnt been for almost 10 years.

I agree that Bellamy is most likely the best in the game at the moment, with Hasler second, however for someone to say a guy who has won 2 premierships in the past 7 years (people can argue all they like he got luck or whatever other excuses always get brought up, fact is he won them) isn't up there any more and hasn't been for 10 years shows that maybe they aren't in the know.

 

[Coxy]

Regardless of the legitimacy of the squads, Bellamy coached superbly. There's no doubt.

 

[john1420]

if melbourne were to win the premiership this year, going back to back, what would you say then? that hes not as good as bennett because he went back to back already 15 years ago? would you continue to bang on about bellamy being a cheat and the premierships "not counting"? somehow i think you would.

pretty much EVERY person in the know agrees that bellamy is the best coach in the game, has been for some time, with hasler coming in second. bennetts just not up there anymore. hasnt been for almost 10 years.

Fair go AP

I am banging on about the years Melbourne cheated, because guess what, they are the years they friggen cheated

I have not said a word dismissing their victory last year nor will I; it was won fair and square

If they go back to back this year, they will have thoroughly deserved it

Bellamy is a fine coach I am not arguing this

Is he better than Wayne Bennett as of this moment? Yes

Is his career record better than Bennett's? No. not even in close - and that is all i am saying, he has a long way to go to be considered in the same realm as WB

But of all the coaches going round, would I want him in charge at the club I support? Absolutely

 

[Anonymous person]

Is his career record better than Bennett's? No. not even in close - and that is all i am saying, he has a long way to go to be considered in the same realm as WB

why are you saying that though? noone has ever once even suggested that his career record is better than bennetts.

thats NOT what you were arguing though. you were arguing that he doesnt qualify as a great coach.