POST GAME Round 3 - Tigers vs Broncos

[lynx000]

I honestly barely noticed him, which means he didn't **** up, but also didn't do anything noteworthy. That is what my score is based on.

In fairness, due to it being a dour affair, the game had a soporific impact on me, which helped by the long work hours I have been doing, made me less than alert...

Code for, Porthoz went to sleep sometime in the first half.

 

[Alec]

I've been thinking about Gillett - even though his defence has gotten a LOT better since his early days, I'm still pretty disappointed with how his development turned out overall. What the hell happened to his attack? When he came onto the scene, you could tell he was raw...but you could also tell that he was a real footballer. He has so much skill too. He threw offloads that put were every bit as good as Parker's and TPJ's, if not even better. He had a nice pass on him, and that got him into the 6 jersey a few times, and even though he struggled there, you could sort of see why they picked him over others, he had a lot of skill. Fast forward 6 or so years, and now most of his attack comes down to hole running, and not even consistently good hole running - a lot of the time he can get in the way by running a bad line. What happened to all that talent?

 

[Porthoz]

Fair call. I can see how my last post could come across as personal, but that was certainly not my intention. I guess in attempting to reinforce my point, I tried to use your own reasoning in examples against what you were saying. So, my apologies if I’ve come across personal.

And you’ll just have to take me at face value when I say that I DO NOT have an agenda against Gillett.

Indeed, I personally believe that currently, Gillett would be the first Bronco picked for rep teams (although I think McGuire is more consistent and Boyd circa '15, '16 was easily our premier player with respect to rep teams). With this though, comes the highest expectations. I guess what I am saying is, similarly to your heightened expectations of Boyd (which I agree with), Gillett simply must be held to the same lofty standards.

With that said, it certainly appears to me that you are scoring him, whether consciously or subconsciously, higher than the sum of his performance at the moment.
That or you’re scoring others too low.
If you read my original post, that's all I was trying to say.
Whilst I’m happy to be proven wrong, I just don’t agree that Gillett was the close to, or better, than Lodge, McGuire or Sims last night. Credit where its due, those guys played well. If Gillett gets a 7, those blokes all deserve at least 8's. They were that much better in their roles than Gillett was in his.
Which arcs back to my earlier point about people allowing their bias to cloud their judgement. That’s not a personal attack, but it also doesn’t make it any less true.

With respect to my Lodge and Lockyer example; you’ve provided reasoning as to why Lodge needs to improve those areas, and whilst I don’t agree it’s valid criticism based simply on the fact he is still so incredibly green in the NRL, they are reasons nonetheless.
What does strike me as strange though, is that you’re willing to hold Lodge accountable for his mistakes so early in his career whilst ignoring his inexperience, but still not criticise Gillett for his shortcomings, even though he is a seasoned veteran and walk-up start in all rep teams. I am not trying to be patronising, but does that make sense? I am, however, sorry if the Lockyer comment seemed a bit strong, it was only intended to be a grossly overstated simile, not a dig.

Moving on, I guess we will have to agree to disagree when it comes to Cordner and Gillett over the last couple of years. Which, as a Broncos fan is so frustrating, because I know Gillett can be every bit as good as him, if not better. Right now though, I just don’t think he’s close. But I do want to be clear, I was comparing Gillett to Cordner when I said he was only participating, not commenting on his place in the team as a whole. I stand by this. If I didn’t explain that well in my previous posts, I am more so trying to accentuate that Cordner continues to get better, Gillett continues to decline. That’s my main concern around Gillett, because we need him to fire if we're to get anywhere near the pointy end of any season in the next few years.

Regarding our halfbacks since 2014, quite simply, I was wrong. I thought both Prince and Wallace played in ‘14, but they both left at the end of ‘13. My mistake.
Benji did play 7 at times though last year, so if I didn’t get my years wrong, that would have made 5 - but obviously, that’s all academic.

I must ask, as we clearly disagree on a few things I am genuinely interested to hear your thoughts; what are you expecting from the someone or anyone else on the 4th or 5th tackle that McGuire isn’t providing? I am not naive enough to think that McGuire simply rucking it up is the best option, but right now it may be our only option. I'd much rather that than have Milf, Kodi or Macca stink it up and get caught with the ball, or give it to a flat-footed bloke who isn't expecting it only to lose ground, or put in some half-arsed afterthought kick, as these seem to be our only go to moves when McGuire isn't there.

Again, sorry if anything previously came across as personal or anything in this post does. I can't stand keyboard warriors turning discussions, that are simply differences of opinion, into personal attacks. So if you think I am doing that, let me know. Cheers.

First of all, thank you for taking the high road.
I am not sure I would've been able to, as I am truly sick and tired of the usual "bias" or "agenda" moniker some people throw around to weigh up and validate their opinion against their target's.
I thought you were doing that too, and threw you on the same heap. My sincere apologies!

I think our opinions collide in regards to Gillett, because of what we see as the source of his attacking decline.
Although this doesn't do him justice and is very simplistically put, Cordner doesn't make things happen, he merely runs good lines into gaps opened by his half's work. I lost count of the times Gillett ran a good line, only for his half to pass too late, too soon, or more often than not, not pass at all.
This started when Hunt captured the half's spot next to Gillo, being notoriously bad using people outside of him on the right side. A second rower's attack prowess falls or stands with his half, and Hunt was simply horrid in that aspect, which largely contributed to Gillo's decline and rustiness.
Maybe that is my bias speaking, but I can't blame Matty for that. He needs a guy next to him, who has a clue about using a gun backrower. In the rep Arena and even last season with Niko, Gillett was definitely a better player in offense thanks to that.
Gillett has been criminally under-utilised on that right edge in my opinion, which is why I often hoped he would move to the left, play off, and protect Milford.

BTW, Benji barely ever played on Gillett's side, so I am not going to count him as one of those halves.

Now, in the last two games, two very visible errors were made involving Kodi and Gillo, one in defense last week, one in attack this week. The fact I don't see Nikorima as a Halfback and my self confessed man-crush on Gillett, leads people to believe I am using the incidents to further an agenda, instead of seeing it for what it clearly is... Kodi opening a gap in defense last week, and making a meal of a relatively easy pass to his right yesterday (which I would add, is not something I would normally expect from him).

I am not going to take points off Gillett because of Kodi's errors, or because he didn't break the game open by himself despite being our top Rep player, or because I know how much more he has to offer. He doesn't get attacking bonus points from me in his scores, but he gets a + for his very good disruptive sapper work (which makes me think people wanting him out of the starting 13 are nuts), hence the 7.

Likewise, I gave points to Lodge for his work carting the ball and his tackling efforts, but also took them off for what I see as a serious flaw in his game at the moment, which is his defensive ruck work.
His experience in the NRL will undoubtedly make a difference, and I am sure he will improve, but again, that has no bearing on his score, which is based only on the game against the Tigers.
Is it harsh? Possibly... but keeping the ruck tight, is one of the most important aspects of the game, especially for a prop. It doesn't mean I don't have faith in Lodge's future (on the paddock).

In regards to McGuire, let me start by saying that my stance is predicated on our 4th and 5th tackles being in the opposition's last 30, not when we are still in our half. Our halves are the ones who must get the ball in their hands at that point!
If they don't, I still prefer a forward capable of more than McGuire in the creative stakes (offload, pass at the line, ability to get a quick PTB, etc...), which is the main reason I don't want him as lock and looking for the ball late in each set, emulating a Gallen (who at least had an offload) in stiffling his attack.

I do get where you're coming from, but even if Kodi, Milf or Boyd make a meal of it most times, there is still a bigger chance of a positive outcome, than Moose just taking another hit-up into the opposition's defensive line, which then simply becomes a lost opportunity.
I would trade positions between him and TPJ in a heart beat, whom I would rotate with Thaiday.

Again, this doesn't make me a Moose hater, because I would immediately have him as our no.1 prop, which is where he belongs despite his smaller size imo.

 

[Unbreakable]

And another thing that should be considered when criticising Gillett for not breaking the game open in attack for us is that edge backrowers are generally speaking not game breakers, even the best ones in the game right now only score a handful of tries and try assists every year, his job is to hit hard in defence and run good lines, he definitely does the former, I think he could improve the later personally, but he still runs good lines.

A couple of examples of the upper echelon of edge backrowers attacking stats in 2017, Gillett is still one of the best -

Matt Gillett - 7 tries, 3 try assists
Wade Graham - 5 tries, 5 try assists
Josh Papalii - 5 tries, 4 try assists
Boyd Cordner - 4 tries, 0 try assists
Josh Jackson - 1 try, 1 try assist
Tyson Frizell - 1 try, 0 try assists

 

[Gaz]

And another thing that should be considered when criticising Gillett for not breaking the game open in attack for us is that edge backrowers are generally speaking not game breakers, even the best ones in the game right now only score a handful of tries and try assists every year, his job is to hit hard in defence and run good lines, he definitely does the former, I think he could improve the later personally, but he still runs good lines.

A couple of examples of the upper echelon of edge backrowers attacking stats in 2017, Gillett is still one of the best -

Matt Gillett - 7 tries, 3 try assists
Wade Graham - 5 tries, 5 try assists
Josh Papalii - 5 tries, 4 try assists
Boyd Cordner - 4 tries, 0 try assists
Josh Jackson - 1 try, 1 try assist
Tyson Frizell - 1 try, 0 try assists

Clearly Bennett has given Matt a job to do in defence.
Under Henjeck and Griffin, from 2010 till Bennett took over in 2015 he scored 41 tries. Under Wayne 13 with 7 last year and 3 each in 15/16. His defence at times is nothing short of awesome and while he continues doing that he’ll do me.

 

[Lebbo73]

what a game, best broncos performance in years. everyone ran with intent, defence was on point. game plan was perfect for the conditions. hats off to all involved, that was origin like and is easily one of the best rugby league games in the history of sport. NRL won tonight.

The bigwigs will be banging heads together at NRL headquarters on Monday morning to make sure this type of game never happens again. You can’t have teams scoring no tries and winning ever happen again they will be saying. It’s unacceptable in this day an age of short attention spans!

 

[WASSHHH]

First of all, thank you for taking the high road.
I am not sure I would've been able to, as I am truly sick and tired of the usual "bias" or "agenda" moniker some people throw around to weigh up and validate their opinion against their target's.
I thought you were doing that too, and threw you on the same heap. My sincere apologies!

I think our opinions collide in regards to Gillett, because of what we see as the source of his attacking decline.
Although this doesn't do him justice and is very simplistically put, Cordner doesn't make things happen, he merely runs good lines into gaps opened by his half's work. I lost count of the times Gillett ran a good line, only for his half to pass too late, too soon, or more often than not, not pass at all.
This started when Hunt captured the half's spot next to Gillo, being notoriously bad using people outside of him on the right side. A second rower's attack prowess falls or stands with his half, and Hunt was simply horrid in that aspect, which largely contributed to Gillo's decline and rustiness.
Maybe that is my bias speaking, but I can't blame Matty for that. He needs a guy next to him, who has a clue about using a gun backrower. In the rep Arena and even last season with Niko, Gillett was definitely a better player in offense thanks to that.
Gillett has been criminally under-utilised on that right edge in my opinion, which is why I often hoped he would move to the left, play off, and protect Milford.

BTW, Benji barely ever played on Gillett's side, so I am not going to count him as one of those halves.

Now, in the last two games, two very visible errors were made involving Kodi and Gillo, one in defense last week, one in attack this week. The fact I don't see Nikorima as a Halfback and my self confessed man-crush on Gillett, leads people to believe I am using the incidents to further an agenda, instead of seeing it for what it clearly is... Kodi opening a gap in defense last week, and making a meal of a relatively easy pass to his right yesterday (which I would add, is not something I would normally expect from him).

I am not going to take points off Gillett because of Kodi's errors, or because he didn't break the game open by himself despite being our top Rep player, or because I know how much more he has to offer. He doesn't get attacking bonus points from me in his scores, but he gets a + for his very good disruptive sapper work (which makes me think people wanting him out of the starting 13 are nuts), hence the 7.

Likewise, I gave points to Lodge for his work carting the ball and his tackling efforts, but also took them off for what I see as a serious flaw in his game at the moment, which is his defensive ruck work.
His experience in the NRL will undoubtedly make a difference, and I am sure he will improve, but again, that has no bearing on his score, which is based only on the game against the Tigers.
Is it harsh? Possibly... but keeping the ruck tight, is one of the most important aspects of the game, especially for a prop. It doesn't mean I don't have faith in Lodge's future (on the paddock).

In regards to McGuire, let me start by saying that my stance is predicated on our 4th and 5th tackles being in the opposition's last 30, not when we are still in our half. Our halves are the ones who must get the ball in their hands at that point!
If they don't, I still prefer a forward capable of more than McGuire in the creative stakes (offload, pass at the line, ability to get a quick PTB, etc...), which is the main reason I don't want him as lock and looking for the ball late in each set, emulating a Gallen (who at least had an offload) in stiffling his attack.

I do get where you're coming from, but even if Kodi, Milf or Boyd make a meal of it most times, there is still a bigger chance of a positive outcome, than Moose just taking another hit-up into the opposition's defensive line, which then simply becomes a lost opportunity.
I would trade positions between him and TPJ in a heart beat, whom I would rotate with Thaiday.

Again, this doesn't make me a Moose hater, because I would immediately have him as our no.1 prop, which is where he belongs despite his smaller size imo.

It's all good, no apology necessary.
I didn't take offence to anything you said, but then again, I haven't been on here anywhere near as long as you have, so I am not as conditioned to people driving their own agendas - as I have no doubt is the case for some.
Further, I am not here to argue with people like petty little children. You've got your opinion and it doesn't have to align with mine and vice versa.
We can most certainly still have a civilised discussion around such topics though - which I think this has been.
I meant what I said though, I can see how some of my comments would look personal, and that's not cool.
I am always open to being called out should I start behaving in such a manner.
I can hardly expect to be treated with respect if I am not being perceived as showing it.

Moving on. Thanks for taking the time to detail your thoughts and reasons with respect to your views and opinions. Some I can certainly agree with, others I probably have a different view on - which is A-Ok in my book. If we all agree on every topic, there will be no discussion forum, just a big circle-jerk, back-patting club.
Not sure about you, but I don't want to spend any more time outlining why we disagree because its not going to change either of our opinions.

It is quite clear though, we both support our team passionately and want what we think is best for them (which should be a given on a fan forum, but sometimes doesn't seem to be the case). I would love nothing more than to be proven wrong in my criticisms of the team or individuals if it means winning games. Fingers crossed.

 

[mieko]

What a shocker of a game. Are we the new Souths? look great one week horrible the next couple. Couple of tough calls that really could've gone either way, just lucky to come away with the win.

Isaako though,wow! Great under pressure. Have we finally found ourselves a reliable kicker, I think we have.

 

[winslow_wong]

What a shocker of a game. Are we the new Souths? look great one week horrible the next couple. Couple of tough calls that really could've gone either way, just lucky to come away with the win.

Isaako though,wow! Great under pressure. Have we finally found ourselves a reliable kicker, I think we have.

I want to see isaako in open space and finishing some tries. I'm sure he's very capable but we don't want a daryl halligan

 

[WASSHHH]

I want to see isaako in open space and finishing some tries. I'm sure he's very capable but we don't want a daryl halligan

Agreed.
But I don’t think there’s any threat of that, he’s already shown he has way more ticker than Halligan.
If he can kick close to 2,000 points for us as well, that’d be great too!

 

[I bleed Maroon]

https://www.triplem.com.au/sport/nr...ying-the-penalty-call-was-wrong-gordie-tallis

You might wanna sit down for this one. Tallis came out and said the call against the Tigers was correct

 

[papabear]

Oh how appropriate you turn up now to lay some bait. Last time you tried that you ended up slinking off without a murmur like a defeated rat. Enjoy the bottom 8.

lol bottom 8, we are looking good for the spoon, its between us and parra.

If we ever do turn it around though, we will have earned it as opposed to the priviliged few.

And tbh I dont slink off anywhere its just normal games of the broncos dont interest me enough to post.

 

[mitch222]

What a shocker of a game. Are we the new Souths? look great one week horrible the next couple. Couple of tough calls that really could've gone either way, just lucky to come away with the win.

Isaako though,wow! Great under pressure. Have we finally found ourselves a reliable kicker, I think we have.

I think a lot of people are taking the Tigers defence too easy. It’s been top notch to start the season and it’s proof that two premiership favourites have only managed one try against them so far. Give them a bit of credit

 

[Morkel]

https://www.triplem.com.au/sport/nr...ying-the-penalty-call-was-wrong-gordie-tallis

You might wanna sit down for this one. Tallis came out and said the call against the Tigers was correct

He was praising the Broncos yesterday morning too. Not just a single player (like he does if the Titans are sniffing around), but the team, and how they were able to scrap out the win.

I’m as shocked as anyone.

 

[Splinter]

Apparently he buried the hatchet with WB so that may have something to do with it

 

[Horseheadsup]

Apparently he buried the hatchet with WB so that may have something to do with it

There was an all Broncos Captains past and present get together on insiders (I think). Perhaps they got in his ear?

 

[Mightybroncs2k17]

Anyone know who got the dally m points for this one? Just wondering if Thurston or smith managed to scrape a point or two even though they played 24 hours earlier...

But in all serious would be interested to see how you could split all 34 players from one another in that shit fight if a game.

 

[Hammerman47]

As critical as I am on Kodi I still think he has a purpose in the side, I just don't see him as our future 7, he would make a fine utility that is for sure. Nothing would please me more then to see him deliver, but the game's professionalism has changed things and unless he delivers soon I don't see him as our future halfback. Back in Alf's day there was plenty of time in general to develop, the expectations on players were less demanding and even when he joined the Broncos he had time to develop alongside Lewis and when Kevin Walters came to the club he had a good amount of experience as well. And to be fair Alf had his flaws in his early years too, but his pros far outweigh what Kodi has and probably will have.

Now there is so much demand on players coming through, even more so for critical positions like the halves. If he was a forward it might be different, but usually that is more of a physical/body age development adjustment to the demands of the role.

I do wish you get that GF win though mate :)

Cheers m8..thank you and I pretty much agree with what you say.... a really good 7 needs to be the general as we all know and a great utility is wonderful when the big men start slowing down.