POST GAME PSC - Broncos vs Cowboys

[Xzei]

hood hookers

 

[HarryAllan7]

But to go further and insist there's a criminal conspiracy to rig games, I won't entertain that. And it seems like it should be beneath you as well. You're not a yobbo.

I've seen you use this argument before and I don't feel like this is what @Sproj or anyone who complains about the inconsistency in refereeing is implying.

I don't think anyone believes that the NRL is a WWE-style completely manipulated and scripted affair, but objectively watching the games and denying that there is a systemic inconsistency in how the rules are applied and interpreted to different teams is equally ridiculous on the other end of the spectrum.

It's not a criminal conspiracy, but there is very obviously subtle biases and factors which impact how the game is refereed. Such a huge portion of the officiating comes down to discretion and as you point out, referees are human... If a team has a reputation as being particularly slow to get off the ruck and in the referees meeting their point of emphasis for the week is cleaning and speeding up the ruck, then due to normal human factors, the referee is more likely to see / notice / penalise the team which in their mind has the reputation for being lacking in this particular area. That's one very simple example of a team being treated differently from another due to normal human factors and bias, and its an incontrovertible part of officiating in ANY sport.

Deflecting comments about the poor and inconsistent standard of refereeing in the NRL (and it is very clearly BOTH) by framing it as a 'criminal conspiracy' is silly and unnecessary.

 

[broncos4life]

I've seen you use this argument before and I don't feel like this is what @Sproj or anyone who complains about the inconsistency in refereeing is implying.

I don't think anyone believes that the NRL is a WWE-style completely manipulated and scripted affair, but objectively watching the games and denying that there is a systemic inconsistency in how the rules are applied and interpreted to different teams is equally ridiculous on the other end of the spectrum.

It's not a criminal conspiracy, but there is very obviously subtle biases and factors which impact how the game is refereed. Such a huge portion of the officiating comes down to discretion and as you point out, referees are human... If a team has a reputation as being particularly slow to get off the ruck and in the referees meeting their point of emphasis for the week is cleaning and speeding up the ruck, then due to normal human factors, the referee is more likely to see / notice / penalise the team which in their mind has the reputation for being lacking in this particular area. That's one very simple example of a team being treated differently from another due to normal human factors and bias, and its an incontrovertible part of officiating in ANY sport.

Deflecting comments about the poor and inconsistent standard of refereeing in the NRL (and it is very clearly BOTH) by framing it as a 'criminal conspiracy' is silly and unnecessary.

I agree with much of this. I can’t find anyone that has suggested a grand conspiracy but I cannot see anyway you can deny teams are reffed differently.

I think a lot of it comes down to the refs being shit and when in doubt will go the way that will get them less heat. If the Broncos or some other teams get dudded no-one really cares. The average fan will be like **** the Broncos and the media don’t give a shit and will just say they should have been better. However if a Panthers, Cowboys or a like get dudded it will be run on every media station for the entire week and will rule the narrative until the next golden child that gets dudded.

 

[scobie]

Yep let’s play the off topic card now.

Look, is it a big conspiracy? I don’t know but the facts are these and feel free to actually address them not go off on some stupid tangent as you usually do.

- the game is run by a corrupt bloke who has a very shady record with horse racing
- The Tigers v Cows was a glaring example of some shady stuff
- The rules are inarguably open to interpretation
- refs are suddenly game managers and not refs
- Teams behind inevitably get legs up to you know manage the game, simply look at last week’s world club challenge as a very recent example
- Explain why some teams year in, year out get really hard draws yet others get easy ones
- Majority of advertising revenue comes from gambling agencies

I mean these are just some of the examples that wouldn’t make it hard to believe that if a massive conspiracy was ever announced about the NRL, it wouldn’t really take anyone by surprise.

But again I don’t expect to refute any of these, simply to either have a go at me or my intelligence or some other stupid, childish response.

I'm going to give this a crack mate, cos I don't buy into this conspiracy thing at all.

-the game is run by a corrupt bloke who has a very shady record with horse racing

Never heard of PVL before he took over rugby league to be honest. Know very little about horse racing other than it's a great way to lose money. But I don't think his character or past is a valid argument as these conspiracy theory arguments have been going on long before he had anything to do with the NRL.

-The Tigers v Cows was a glaring example of some shady stuff

To me it was a glaring example of a **** up in reffing as opposed to anything shady. Sometimes refs make a balls of it. Examples:
Soccer: Choose any of the VAR controversies from the PL this season. If we're arguing that bad reffing calls are part of a conspiracy, then the PL must be neck deep in it, way worse than NRL.
NFL: plenty of calls during the year, most notably the penalty aginst the Eagles at the end of the super bowl to put the Chiefs in position to kick the winning field goal.
Rugby: All we're hearing for the last 3 or 4 years is how they want to get dangerous high challenges out of the game. 6 nations Ireland v France, French prop shoulder to the head of Irish prop, ref only yellow cards it. He was subsequently banned for 6 weeks I think. Conspiracy to keep him on the field? No. Terrible call by ref? Yes

-The rules are inarguably open to interpretation

Of course they are. Just about all field contact sports are the exact same. Examples:
Soccer: whats a red card in one game isn't even a booking in the next. Same for penalties.
NFL: Pass interference called one play, next play not called for something worse.
Rugby: Scrum and ruck penalties- dont even get me started.
Every sport has problems with the way the rules are applied. I always remark that after a big game in any sport, it's very rare that the debate isn't about a crucial call that was wrong or missed, as opposed to the actual play in the game.

-Refs are suddenly game managers not refs

Again same as above. Same as all other sports. Of course they're managing the game. The idea that refs should go out and strictly apply the rules with no leeway either way is non sensical. Examples:
Soccer: The first 10 minutes or so of a game will generally see the ref be more lenient with players as they get the feel of the game. A bad tackle that would normally be a guaranteed yellow might just get a talking to.
Rugby: A ref will be real hard to lay down a marker early for the players so they know he's not taking any shit, and once they realise that, the ref puts the whistle away a bit.
Managing the game. It's the way it should be.

-Teams behind getting leg ups.

To be fair I do think this happens sometimes, but I would suggest it has as much to do with unconscious bias as much as anything else.

-Teams getting hard draws v easy draws

This is driven by TV ratings really. And historic rivalries. From our point of view as Bronco fans, the Bronco's always rate high on Tv, so they want them playing the big boys. Is there a fairer way of doing the draw without serious upheaval to the whole setup of the comp? I don't think so.

-Majority of advertising revenue comes from gambling agencies.

As above, although I'm less sure of this, how long have gambling agencies been the main revenue? I would have thought it is a more recent thing. In which case the conspiracy theory was around before the gambling agencies got involved. Which renders the point invalid.


I follow a lot of sports, and controversy is never far away in any of them. And it's normally caused by refs. And the simple fact is they make mistakes, sometimes unbelievable mistakes. It's a high pressure situation for them too. The ones looking at screens to make calls sometimes can't even get them right. Does that mean there's a conspiracy in the NRL, the Premier League, the NFL, the 6 Nations and loads of other sports to manufacture games and competitions to achieve certain results and outcomes? Not for me anyway. Sorry for such a long post.

 

[Big Del]

I wouldn’t say that is making much sense at all. If you dropped Staggs to make Cobbo a centre you’d push Herbie to right centre which his preferred position and Cobbo to left which is his preferred position.

Bye Kotoni .

 

[Big Del]

I've seen you use this argument before and I don't feel like this is what @

Sproj or anyone who complains about the inconsistency in refereeing is implying.

BS ! They are saying its NSWRL vs the Broncos over and again .
Referees and the judicary treat Broncos players differently and on it goes .

Sproj even said they change the rules to cheat on Mondays via Graeme Annerley .

Some say it is the entertainment industry so outcomes are pre manufactured .

The Cowboys vs Broncos live game thread was one conspiracy comment after another by certain posters . It gets tiresome for me to read that rubbish .

 

[Culhwch]

Hanlon's razor - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Big Del]

Hanlon's razor - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Occam's razor - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Same thing different name . Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem, which translates as "Entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity"


The Sorrows of Young Werther (1774, first English translation 1779): "[...] Mißverständnisse und Trägheit vielleicht mehr Irrungen in der Welt machen als List und Bosheit. Wenigstens sind die beiden letzteren gewiß seltener." ('[...]

misunderstandings and lethargy perhaps produce more wrong in the world than deceit and malice do. At least the latter two are certainly rarer.


There is very little deliberate wickedness in the world. The stupidity of our selfishness gives much the same results indeed, but in the ethical laboratory it shows a different nature.[14]

 

[Big Del]

Exhiibit A - The nswrl won't let them start with a loss, it won't look good for them

Exhiibit B -
And I'm going to keep using it as a reminder that in this comp some clubs play to some rules, whilst others get a different set of rules.

Are your eyes painted on Harry ?

 

[Mustafur]

I don't believe there is a conspiracy against us, but I love blaming NSWRL so take that as you will.

Watching other games during the week confirms to me the standard of reffing in this game is just shit house, not to mention each ref tends to police a game with their own distinct brand of shit which can make it look like they are targeting us.

For me the best refs are the ones that will let a bit of niggle go to keep it flowing because the ones that never have the whistle leave their mouth just **** up more and ruin the flow of the game anyway.

 

[HarryAllan7]

I agree with much of this. I can’t find anyone that has suggested a grand conspiracy but I cannot see anyway you can deny teams are reffed differently.

I think a lot of it comes down to the refs being shit and when in doubt will go the way that will get them less heat. If the Broncos or some other teams get dudded no-one really cares. The average fan will be like **** the Broncos and the media don’t give a shit and will just say they should have been better. However if a Panthers, Cowboys or a like get dudded it will be run on every media station for the entire week and will rule the narrative until the next golden child that gets dudded.

Like the old saying goes ... 'whenever you think conspiracy, first think incompetence'

 

[Mr Fourex]

For me the best refs are the ones that will let a bit of niggle go to keep it flowing because the ones that never have the whistle leave their mouth just **** up more and ruin the flow of the game anyway.

Totally.......the NRL have spent all this time and effort into making up stupid fucken rules so that the game will flow faster

then a fuckhead referee comes along and blows his whistle every couple minutes

.......and then the bunker start blowing their own penalties in between, because the ref missed something in their eyes.

I rather see a few things missed (for both teams) and the play go on.......than these penalty-a-thons we've been seeing lately.

 

[Morkel]

90% of the "Conspiracy" arguments come from me, with most of it via the NSWRL Digest. Now, I know the quality of that publication is on par with what we receive from mainstream media, I can assure you that it is actually satire.

The rest that comes from me is indeed conspiracy worthy, but I don't think others are as heavy as I am in this regard. All that we agree on is that (1) the refereeing is inconsistent, and (2) that the advantage overwhelmingly goes towards certain teams. I would say that if you can't agree with the above, you are actually a big of an idiot, because there is a clear and undeniable pattern.

We can disagree on the cause of the favouritism, sure, but to deny it is just ignorant. Even if the cause is something other than deliberate, we are doing the team a dis-service by ignoring it, because it is not something that should be tolerated, and is absolutely contributing to the detriment of not only on-field performances, as well as to the careers of our players. Is it the only cause? No one has said it is. Has anyone said that we are perfect and improving ourselves is not necessary or possible? Of course not. But it is a factor, and needs to be addressed as much as anything else.

 

[Sproj]

I'm going to give this a crack mate, cos I don't buy into this conspiracy thing at all.

-the game is run by a corrupt bloke who has a very shady record with horse racing

Never heard of PVL before he took over rugby league to be honest. Know very little about horse racing other than it's a great way to lose money. But I don't think his character or past is a valid argument as these conspiracy theory arguments have been going on long before he had anything to do with the NRL.

-The Tigers v Cows was a glaring example of some shady stuff

To me it was a glaring example of a **** up in reffing as opposed to anything shady. Sometimes refs make a balls of it. Examples:
Soccer: Choose any of the VAR controversies from the PL this season. If we're arguing that bad reffing calls are part of a conspiracy, then the PL must be neck deep in it, way worse than NRL.
NFL: plenty of calls during the year, most notably the penalty aginst the Eagles at the end of the super bowl to put the Chiefs in position to kick the winning field goal.
Rugby: All we're hearing for the last 3 or 4 years is how they want to get dangerous high challenges out of the game. 6 nations Ireland v France, French prop shoulder to the head of Irish prop, ref only yellow cards it. He was subsequently banned for 6 weeks I think. Conspiracy to keep him on the field? No. Terrible call by ref? Yes

-The rules are inarguably open to interpretation

Of course they are. Just about all field contact sports are the exact same. Examples:
Soccer: whats a red card in one game isn't even a booking in the next. Same for penalties.
NFL: Pass interference called one play, next play not called for something worse.
Rugby: Scrum and ruck penalties- dont even get me started.
Every sport has problems with the way the rules are applied. I always remark that after a big game in any sport, it's very rare that the debate isn't about a crucial call that was wrong or missed, as opposed to the actual play in the game.

-Refs are suddenly game managers not refs

Again same as above. Same as all other sports. Of course they're managing the game. The idea that refs should go out and strictly apply the rules with no leeway either way is non sensical. Examples:
Soccer: The first 10 minutes or so of a game will generally see the ref be more lenient with players as they get the feel of the game. A bad tackle that would normally be a guaranteed yellow might just get a talking to.
Rugby: A ref will be real hard to lay down a marker early for the players so they know he's not taking any shit, and once they realise that, the ref puts the whistle away a bit.
Managing the game. It's the way it should be.

-Teams behind getting leg ups.

To be fair I do think this happens sometimes, but I would suggest it has as much to do with unconscious bias as much as anything else.

-Teams getting hard draws v easy draws

This is driven by TV ratings really. And historic rivalries. From our point of view as Bronco fans, the Bronco's always rate high on Tv, so they want them playing the big boys. Is there a fairer way of doing the draw without serious upheaval to the whole setup of the comp? I don't think so.

-Majority of advertising revenue comes from gambling agencies.

As above, although I'm less sure of this, how long have gambling agencies been the main revenue? I would have thought it is a more recent thing. In which case the conspiracy theory was around before the gambling agencies got involved. Which renders the point invalid.


I follow a lot of sports, and controversy is never far away in any of them. And it's normally caused by refs. And the simple fact is they make mistakes, sometimes unbelievable mistakes. It's a high pressure situation for them too. The ones looking at screens to make calls sometimes can't even get them right. Does that mean there's a conspiracy in the NRL, the Premier League, the NFL, the 6 Nations and loads of other sports to manufacture games and competitions to achieve certain results and outcomes? Not for me anyway. Sorry for such a long post.

Great response. I also want to clarify, I don't think there is a conspiracy because I just don't think people involved in rugby league are smart enough to do so. For me the issue has always been incompetence from top down, very much including Vlandys. The one bloke who seemed to actually be doing a good job was the British accountant and then he got punted / left because he was too good for the job.

My issue has always been that it should be one of the best and most popular sports in the world but it isn't because although it masquerades as a professional organisation and competition, it is run by idiots / incompetents / amateurs and this is symptomatic in the refereeing.

I hate that I think the Broncos should wrestle, play dirty, be constantly offside, etc because that is not how I want rugby league to be. I hate that I think Kevvie should speak out about the refereeing but I think he should because those that do, like Robinson, Stuart, Tripp and the Cows as an entire organisation, they get treated better because the powers that be get scared of those that call them out.

As said above by other posters, I think there is a bias against teams that do not speak up. The Cows v Tigers was a probably the best example of this because incompetence directly changed the result and then this was doubled down by officialdom post-game trying to cover their own backsides and as a fan of the sport itself, this sucks. The World Club challenge was another excellent example of this bias coming through. St Helens were clearly the better team all game and in the end, the right result happened but in spite of the ref, not because of fair officiating.

And another point for posters who seem to constantly criticise fans for being passionate in game and complaining, seriously, what is wrong with you? This is a fan forum, posters should feel free to be, you know, fans. So if you don't like bias in posts in game threads, don't go into them, it is that simple.

Passionate fans for our club should never be criticised for being passionate fans for our club.

 

[Morkel]

Like the old saying goes ... 'whenever you think conspiracy, first think incompetence'

I think the translated quote above is more apt. It may not be "deliberate wickedness", but there is absolutely a case for "the stupidity of our selfishness".

Whether that be literally a corrupt person in charge, looking at lining their own pockets, or just a referee looking to preserve their career by taking the easy decision, just because it's not deliberate wickedness does not mean that it's the right thing to do.

 

[Big Del]

Great response. I also want to clarify, I don't think there is a conspiracy because I just don't think people involved in rugby league are smart enough to do so. For me the issue has always been incompetence from top down, very much including Vlandys. The one bloke who seemed to actually be doing a good job was the British accountant and then he got punted / left because he was too good for the job.

My issue has always been that it should be one of the best and most popular sports in the world but it isn't because although it masquerades as a professional organisation and competition, it is run by idiots / incompetents / amateurs and this is symptomatic in the refereeing.

I hate that I think the Broncos should wrestle, play dirty, be constantly offside, etc because that is not how I want rugby league to be. I hate that I think Kevvie should speak out about the refereeing but I think he should because those that do, like Robinson, Stuart, Tripp and the Cows as an entire organisation, they get treated better because the powers that be get scared of those that call them out.

As said above by other posters, I think there is a bias against teams that do not speak up. The Cows v Tigers was a probably the best example of this because incompetence directly changed the result and then this was doubled down by officialdom post-game trying to cover their own backsides and as a fan of the sport itself, this sucks. The World Club challenge was another excellent example of this bias coming through. St Helens were clearly the better team all game and in the end, the right result happened but in spite of the ref, not because of fair officiating.

And another point for posters who seem to constantly criticise fans for being passionate in game and complaining, seriously, what is wrong with you? This is a fan forum, posters should feel free to be, you know, fans. So if you don't like bias in posts in game threads, don't go into them, it is that simple.

Passionate fans for our club should never be criticised for being passionate fans for our club.

Bias is one thing .
Every penalty against the Broncos is a stitch up / conspiracy gets very boring , very quickly .

 

[Sproj]

Bias is one thing .
Every penalty against the Broncos is a stitch up / conspiracy gets very boring , very quickly .

And? You defending Niu / whoever your flavour of the day is gets old pretty quickly too but it is all part of being a fan, nothing wrong with it.

 

[Financeguy]

The World Club challenge was another excellent example of this bias coming through. St Helens were clearly the better team all game and in the end, the right result happened but in spite of the ref, not because of fair officiating.

Funnily enough i was at this game and the mostly pro Penrith crowd were giving it to the ref regularly for at least the first 60 mins of the game for the Panthers being held down in the tackle and the constant slowing down of the game. If you asked a Penrith fan they would have the exact opposite opinion of you for the ref performance. For every Bronco fan feeling like we are hard done by in a game you could find one from the opposition feeling the same way.

I too get a bit tired of the N(SW)RL complaining by certain posters in the live game threads as any unfavorable decisions (or in some case line ball) are whinged about but favorable decisions are quickly overlooked. Complaining about how the Cows try in the corner was awarded when we all know that it will be looked at anyway but nothing about Cobbo's try being awarded in a similar fashion is one example.

But, you are right, you need to expect some form of bias in the live game thread as emotions are generally at their highest.