NEWS Top Bronco sends SOS to Israel

[rnabokov]

Also, to add, does this mean any high profile individual, from sports starts, to celebrities, to politicians, cannot talk about their faith in public, for fear of losing their jobs? You specifically said Izzy cant use his high profile and role model status to promote his views, regardless of how irrational you or i find them to be.
Sounds like discrimination and suppression of free speech to me Huge, and that can lead down a path where you are suppressed if your views differ from others, regardless of what side of the fence you sit on.

No one is denying Folau the right to free preach. The question is what are the consequences of his views for the kind of society we want to live in and raise our kids, given the fact , as @Huge rightly points out, he is a high profile public figure in sport, and sport is one part of social life which is very important in shaping how kids experience their world.

So, as a club, are we prepared to endorse and embrace his views which for me seem implicit in signing him, especially while he continues to preach. So, you can see a headline: "Bronco star Israel Folau says gay people are an abomination...."

As I said, I would prefer to draw a line somewhere in that sand which does not endorse Folau's views which again are NOT simply a matter of personal faith. Religion is a very powerful force which shapes culture, society and politics - everything which affects the way we live. I brought my kids up to value and practise the mantra that the core message of any god is that love and compassion, which includes all people, is the standard by which one should live and treat others. Folau's views, beliefs and practises - his religion, are so so far away from that it frankly disgusts me.

 

[Thelmus]

What's the bet the day we sign him, we get half a dozen of our players to "come out".
I can see it happening.
We sign half a dozen giants only for 6 again to render them ineffective, we sign bird, only for him to remain almost permanently on sick leave.
We sack a coach who then turns his team into a premiership favourite whilst we sign one who takes us to the wooden spoon.
Our preseason training sessions seem to render more time injuries than a bunch of drunken Spartans with hangovers and our off-field behaviour makes them look like a boy choir recital. Our on-field at times however resembles the latter and not the former.
I know a lot of it is self-inflicted but it seems if something can go wrong it will.
Id love to see it turn around with parramatta but it feels like of late our hopes are built up only to be crushed. The saddest part is I'm still looking forward to the season against all evidence to the contrary that I should be. Some where buried deep in my sub-councious must be a masochist!

 

[rnabokov]

Agreed, however, are those conditions themselves not discriminatory? I mean, would those conditions be ok if you were to tell a gay person they cant talk about their sexuality to keep their job?

Again, for me the overriding question is what sort of world do we want to live in, and raise our kids.

Also, as an aside, I am unaware of gays bashing straights because they are straight.

 

[Midean]

No one is denying Folau the right to free preach. The question is what are the consequences of his views for the kind of society we want to live in and raise our kids, given the fact , as @Huge rightly points out, he is a high profile public figure in sport, and sport is one part of social life which is very important in shaping how kids experience their world.

So, as a club, are we prepared to endorse and embrace his views which for me seem implicit in signing him, especially while he continues to preach. So, you can see a headline: "Bronco star Israel Folau says gay people are an abomination...."

As I said, I would prefer to draw a line somewhere in that sand which does not endorse Folau's views which again are NOT simply a matter of personal faith. Religion is a very powerful force which shapes culture, society and politics - everything which affects the way we live. I brought my kids up to value and practise the mantra that the core message of any god is that love and compassion, which includes all people, is the standard by which one should live and treat others. Folau's views, beliefs and practises - his religion, are so so far away from that it frankly disgusts me.

Yea for sure, Folau's sect of Christianity is extreme and i liken to a watered down Aussie version of the Westboro Baptist church, those nutters that picket soldier funerals and have anti-gay marches and the like.

The issue i have is with legality. So long as What Izzy is doing is not breaking any laws, anyone who deals with him needs to be super careful how they handle the situation or face the same problems the ARU did.

 

[tommy]

What's the bet the day we sign him, we get half a dozen of our players to "come out".

Who’s your money on?

 

[Midean]

Again, for me the overriding question is what sort of world do we want to live in, and raise our kids.

Also, as an aside, I am unaware of gays bashing straights because they are straight.

I too want to live in the same exact world you are raising your kids to live in.
The law however needs to change because as it stands, you can happily practice a religion that teaches that being homosexual is a profound sin that will see you condemned for eternity.
There is a conflict of legality here that needs to be addressed and until it is, you will have people spouting nonsense with no repercussions.
The freedom to practice your faith, vs the freedom from hate speech and discrimination from that exact same faith is the underlying issue here.

Its almost a lose/lose situation for the NRL. If they don't hire him based on his beliefs, then they are discriminating against him on religious grounds.
If they do hire him, they are condoning his stance on the gay community.
What a mess.

 

[Dash]

Israel has changed his religion before, so obviously he doesn't care THAT much about it. Shouldn't be that hard to shut up for a couple of years and collect his paycheque. After all, all his church really cares about is getting their 10%.

 

[Midean]

Israel has changed his religion before, so obviously he doesn't care THAT much about it. Shouldn't be that hard to shut up for a couple of years and collect his paycheque. After all, all his church really cares about is getting their 10%.

That is what a smart logical person would do.
But a smart logical person is probably not going to be involved in extreme religious beliefs in the first place.

 

[Huge]

Here's the thing.
We live in a society where religion is prevalent.
Every town has a church and a mosque, and every town has its share of religious followers who congregate in those places to be taught (indoctrinated) about their faith, and the laws and beliefs that make up the foundation of their religion.
It doesn't matter if you or i agree with those teachings, we have no right to tell them what to believe or how to behave.

One of the core teachings of Islam and Christianity is that certain sins will send you to hell.
Both faiths teach their followers to spread the word of their respective deities, and modern freedoms allow them to do this, again, regardless of weather or not you agree with this, they are perfectly, and legally within their rights to do so.
So to restrict a persons employment based on their religion, and religious practices is discrimination no matter how you spin it, as it is not illegal to do any of these things regardless of how morally reprehensible we may find them.

I am playing devils advocate here and have made it perfectly clear that i wholeheartedly disagree with Izzy's views.
However, to think that there are contracts being made in professions telling a person they cannot practice their faith in public for fear of losing their jobs is in itself an act of discrimination no different to telling someone they cannot work here if they talk about their sexuality in public.

Edit: There is a reason ARU payed Folau a settlement for this very topic we are discussing, and also i think, the reason the NRL are being as delicate as they can with it, as the law is on Izzy's side in this.

You lump together so many issues(and some irrelevances) that a discussion is a bit difficult. You blithely slid past my point. Folau makes declarations of certainty. If he stops doing that and perhaps said something along the lines of 'in my religion homosexuality etc is a sin and we believe our god will punish those for doing things we consider bad' I probably wouldn't mind so much, in fact most of us wouldn't mind I'd guess.

It's his open condemnation, his judgemental view and his declaration that punishment is certain, the view that the existence of his favoured space goblin is certain that makes me puke.

If it's okay in our society to openly discriminate in certain areas it should be okay to ensure we have rules to stop people declaring reprehensible things to be certain and 'the way'.

If Folau simply explained to people that although he believes what he's saying he cannot prove any of it, it's just a belief and he could be wrong about all of it we might be more understanding. It would be both humble and intelligent.

 

[IceWorks]

Humble and intelligent NRL have a trouble fielding 13 players each week :)

 

[broncsgoat]

Who’s your money on?

Plot twist - Folau

You lump together so many issues(and some irrelevances) that a discussion is a bit difficult. You blithely slid past my point. Folau makes declarations of certainty. If he stops doing that and perhaps said something along the lines of 'in my religion homosexuality etc is a sin and we believe our god will punish those for doing things we consider bad' I probably wouldn't mind so much, in fact most of us wouldn't mind I'd guess.

It's his open condemnation, his judgemental view and his declaration that punishment is certain, the view that the existence of his favoured space goblin is certain that makes me puke.

If it's okay in our society to openly discriminate in certain areas it should be okay to ensure we have rules to stop people declaring reprehensible things to be certain and 'the way'.

If Folau simply explained to people that although he believes what he's saying he cannot prove any of it, it's just a belief and he could be wrong about all of it we might be more understanding. It would be both humble and intelligent.

Has he said anything openly since reposting that image or is everybody still just butthurt about that?

 

[Midean]

You lump together so many issues(and some irrelevances) that a discussion is a bit difficult. You blithely slid past my point. Folau makes declarations of certainty. If he stops doing that and perhaps said something along the lines of 'in my religion homosexuality etc is a sin and we believe our god will punish those for doing things we consider bad' I probably wouldn't mind so much, in fact most of us wouldn't mind I'd guess.

It's his open condemnation, his judgemental view and his declaration that punishment is certain, the view that the existence of his favoured space goblin is certain that makes me puke.

If it's okay in our society to openly discriminate in certain areas it should be okay to ensure we have rules to stop people declaring reprehensible things to be certain and 'the way'.

If Folau simply explained to people that although he believes what he's saying he cannot prove any of it, it's just a belief and he could be wrong about all of it we might be more understanding. It would be both humble and intelligent.

Yea sorry for any confusion in my posts, its a topic im pretty interested in and can get a bit lost in the details.
Israels posts in question where that sinners would go to hell. In his list of sinners, there were alcoholics, thieves, murderers and homosexuals among others.
I think people who are not religious look at it with a sort of bemused disgust, and the only people that really take what Izzy said to heart, are other religious people.
I wholeheartedly think religion is poisonous because of those exact beliefs, and also that religion is a relic of an age before science was widely accepted and helped to fill in the gaps in peoples understanding of life.

In regards to Izzy making declarations of certainty, he is only regurgitating what he is being taught by the church, so its the church that is making those declarations, and Izzy is just putting it out there. He is not doing anything illegal, just posting nonsense being taught to him by his preacher and his bible, and its those teachings that instigate the problem in the first place.

 

[Midean]

I should add that while we have this discussion, i am enjoying a dram of Glenmorangie 10 year old single malt.
So according to Izzy, im off to hell for that sin right there as well, and i can assure you, there are a lot more drinkers out there than homosexuals, so we are all pretty fucked in Izzy's book.

See how silly his posts are when you look at it like that? I mean really, who takes this dude seriously?
Great footballer, fool of a human.

 

[Mesmerise]

People in 2021:

Don't believe in religion or hell, but is offended that someone thinks they are going to hell for drinking alcohol, etc.

Let the man play football.

 

[Midean]

This whole situation got me to thinking about owning responsibility as well.
Twitter allowed him to post his vitriolic bullshit. Twitter never banned him for what some would call hate speech.
Yet twitter suffers no repercussions.
So Israel has his career put in jeopardy for practicing a perfectly legal religion, suffers backlash from every direction because of his beliefs, but the platform that allowed him to spread his word amongst the masses gets off scott free.
The church that teaches Izzy his beliefs also suffers little to no backlash, at least compared to what Israel has been put through.
Interesting stuff.

He is being made the fall guy for a much larger issue, both with religious teachings and social media platforms.

 

[Xzei]

I hear there's a neo-Nazi peptide salesman (etc etc) about to be released from prison who is better than Tedesco and Lockyer combined, and he is on the market! Let's sign him now and include him

hey if we can welcome russell packer back into the fold then anyone can get a second chance right?

 

[Huge]

hey if we can welcome russell packer back into the fold then anyone can get a second chance right?

Yep, toe the line and you're all good.

 

[Huge]

That is what a smart logical person would do.
But a smart logical person is probably not going to be involved in extreme religious beliefs in the first place.

Or any religious beliefs!