Racism drama in the U20's

[lynx000]

WTF? How am I going bleeding heart? My main point is whether or not it should be racist, it isn't. Being called a white **** isn't offensive because it isn't derogatory because there isn't any context. Labelling someone because they are black offend people due to centuries of persecution black people faced purely on the colour of there skin.

Tl;dr - if you are offended by being called white, you're a halfwit.

There are a couple of aspects of your position or the justification of your position that are not clear to me and I would be interested in your explanation.

If I am understanding your position, under this hypothetical scenario, a person of colour who may never have been subject to any racial discrimination or vilification is entitled to feel racially vilified if they are referred to as being black because their ancestors have been mistreated and racially vilified. The latter (historical mistreatment) therefore makes what is otherwise simply a description something racially charged and inappropriate.

If this is correct, do they have to have actual knowledge that one of their ancestors was actually mistreated or vilified for this to hold true. Or is it the case that it is some form of racial/cultural zeitgeist that automatically descends upon them by virtue of their ancestry? If so, it is a somewhat bizarre concept.

If identification by colour is racist one way, it must be racist every way. In which case the position taken by UB is correct. My ancestors have been stood over and mistreated by the English for centuries, does that mean I am entitled to take offence if someone of English ancestry identifies me by my ancestry?

 

[Renegade]

Being called a white **** isn't offensive because it isn't derogatory because there isn't any context. Labelling someone because they are black offend people due to centuries of persecution black people faced purely on the colour of there skin.

This doesn't make any sense because if someone is calling you a white ****, a cracker, whatever else, they are singling out your skin colour as a means of derision. It doesn't matter whether there is historical context, they are choosing to highlight that aspect of you in a negative way. Much the same as someone turning around calling a black **** is going to single out their skin colour in a negative way.

There are certainly undertones of why singling out a skin colour is bad, stereotypes, historical context, but in itself, it simply boils down to you are different to me, which is a problem for a lot of people. Black or white.

 

[Morkel]

Let's look at it from a different perspective? Who here thinks that racism is a thing of the past? That might be the precursor here for where the line is drawn. If you think that racism is a quaint ol' mindset that has all but disappeared, it's likely that calling someone out based on their skin colour no longer holds much weight. But if you're of the opinion that racism is still a scourge on society, and still indeed does result in perceptions of inequality, then that there is a very good reason to be wary of throwing such phrasing around.

 

[Alec]

As a person of color, I personally have never been offended when I was called a black c**t in the heat of the moment. I don't know, I'm just no wired to be offended at something like that. If someone calls me something like that in the game, in my head I'm like: I've got the bastard now, he's angry, time to put him off his game entirely

You are a good man. People in general just get offended too easily these days. You have to jump through so many hoops not to offend soccermum x, or tumblr user y, or get sued by some tranny on twitter.

 

[lynx000]

Nashy beat me to it and stated the point far more eloquently and directly than I did.

 

[Renegade]

Let's look at it from a different perspective? Who here thinks that racism is a thing of the past? That might be the precursor here for where the line is drawn. If you think that racism is a quaint ol' mindset that has all but disappeared, it's likely that calling someone out based on their skin colour no longer holds much weight. But if you're of the opinion that racism is still a scourge on society, and still indeed does result in perceptions of inequality, then that there is a very good reason to be wary of throwing such phrasing around.

I think racism still exists but comparative to 40 years ago we've come a long way. I don't think we are, as a country, racists, though we have an older generation that either cannot or is still coming to grips with the way the world has changed since they were young (and what was considered acceptable). The idea is that those guys will die off and as long as people are educated in a balanced manner, will continue to eat into our racist tendencies.

 

[lynx000]

You are a good man. People in general just get offended too easily these days. You have to jump through so many hoops not to offend soccermum x, or tumblr user y, or get sued by some tranny on twitter.

+1 I agree totally with this and Locky's attitude is brilliant. We seem to be developing a society that loves being morally outraged at the drop of a hat.

 

[lynx000]

Let's look at it from a different perspective? Who here thinks that racism is a thing of the past? That might be the precursor here for where the line is drawn. If you think that racism is a quaint ol' mindset that has all but disappeared, it's likely that calling someone out based on their skin colour no longer holds much weight. But if you're of the opinion that racism is still a scourge on society, and still indeed does result in perceptions of inequality, then that there is a very good reason to be wary of throwing such phrasing around.

I think that there is still a large degree of racism in the world and it will remain whilst humans walk the Earth. Yes, there is still racism in Australia, spend anytime on an internet forum and you will see racism, sexism, religious intolerance etc. I was simply questioning B4L's logic behind his contention.

 

[Morkel]

I think racism still exists but comparative to 40 years ago we've come a long way. I don't think we are, as a country, racists, though we have an older generation that either cannot or is still coming to grips with the way the world has changed since they were young (and what was considered acceptable). The idea is that those guys will die off and as long as people are educated in a balanced manner, will continue to eat into our racist tendencies.

I agree we've come a long way, for sure. But that's why I threw the *** analogy at Nashy earlier. In 20 years, or 40 years time, is it all of a sudden going to be okay to call someone a ******? Because right now, we're observing the LGBT community go through exactly what black people went through not that long ago. It might seem like ancient history to us, but it's not.

Even if that opposition player has never been racially discriminated against, you can be pretty sure their parents were, and you can be absolutely sure their grandparents were. They weren't simply teased because they had black skin, they were literally treated as sub-human. That was their existence. So yeah, considering the disrespect shown to their family (via their lineage) then I would completely understand if someone in that position were to be offended. Surely it's not that hard to show respect for the struggles that others have lived and, you know, show a bit of sensitivity?

 

[Renegade]

I agree we've come a long way, for sure. But that's why I threw the *** analogy at Nashy earlier. In 20 years, or 40 years time, is it all of a sudden going to be okay to call someone a ******? Because right now, we're observing the LGBT community go through exactly what black people went through not that long ago. It might seem like ancient history to us, but it's not.

Even if that opposition player has never been racially discriminated against, you can be pretty sure their parents were, and you can be absolutely sure their grandparents were. They weren't simply teased because they had black skin, they were literally treated as sub-human. That was their existence. So yeah, considering the disrespect shown to their family (via their lineage) then I would completely understand if someone in that position were to be offended. Surely it's not that hard to show respect for the struggles that others have lived and, you know, show a bit of sensitivity?

I agree, I can understand how any insult associated with colour towards them is perceived in that way. That's why I don't employ them personally.

However, there is a fair point in raising what's good for the goose is good for the gander - you cant have it both ways and any attempt to do so perfectly illustrates a lot of frustration people have with indigenous culture, ie do as I say not as i do.

 

[Morkel]

I agree, I can understand how any insult associated with colour towards them is perceived in that way. That's why I don't employ them personally.

However, there is a fair point in raising what's good for the goose is good for the gander - you cant have it both ways and any attempt to do so perfectly illustrates a lot of frustration people have with indigenous culture, ie do as I say not as i do.

Well yeah in that case B4L's stance is justified - as the majority of us are white, we simply don't have an equivalent. Does @lynx000 have reason to be offended with his example? Well, yeah, he does, especially if the comments were being made by someone who grew up with the privilege of being the "better" ancestry. But even then we are talking a more remote history. Not only are there still people alive today who have experienced first hand the prejudice that we're discussing here, it is actually still occurring. That there is the exact reason for my beliefs.

One of the most confronting things I've seen on this issue was when Bert Newton completely innocently refers to Mohammad Ali as "boy". If you want to see the gravity that such a seemingly innocent comment can have on someone who is otherwise so mentally assured, there's your example.

 

[ZTop]

Is it racism if you hate Aboriginals not because the colour of their skin, but because you have nothing but negative experiences when interacting with them IRL?

No stereotypical

 

[Renegade]

Well yeah in that case B4L's stance is justified - as the majority of us are white, we simply don't have an equivalent. Does @lynx000 have reason to be offended with his example? Well, yeah, he does, especially if the comments were being made by someone who grew up with the privilege of being the "better" ancestry. But even then we are talking a more remote history. Not only are there still people alive today who have experienced first hand the prejudice that we're discussing here, it is actually still occurring. That there is the exact reason for my beliefs.

What you're suggesting here is a dangerous precedent though, unless you are personally effected by something, your choice is to shutup and take whatever is dished to you and be happy you're not them? Silencing people does no favours to anyone.

 

[JamesC]

There's racist people in all cultures and races.

If we're interested in addressing racism, and want to help those groups that cop it worst, isn't it better to create an environment where *all* racial attacks are completely unacceptable, regardless of who it was said by and who it was directed to?

 

[Morkel]

What you're suggesting here is a dangerous precedent though, unless you are personally effected by something, your choice is to shutup and take whatever is dished to you and be happy you're not them? Silencing people does no favours to anyone.

My choice is to not make it a them vs us at all. Respect everyone equally. That doesn't mean anything goes, it still means that I'm going to avoid anything that can be taken as disrespectful or derogatory. If a black person wants to throw around racial insults at us, the answer is to not get drawn in to a fight on those lines, because nobody wins in that scenario.

 

[Renegade]

My choice is to not make it a them vs us at all. Respect everyone equally. That doesn't mean anything goes, it still means that I'm going to avoid anything that can be taken as disrespectful or derogatory. If a black person wants to throw around racial insults at us, the answer is to not get drawn in to a fight on those lines, because nobody wins in that scenario.

The correct method is to pull them up on, as they did to us (and rightfully so too). They would've been told once upon a time to just suck it up and not let it worry them, but eventually they said no you know what **** this, I don't deserve to be treated like this, I'm not going to take it lying down anymore.

You don't deal with inequality or racism by ignoring it. Both sides.

 

[Morkel]

The correct method is to pull them up on, as they did to us (and rightfully so too). They would've been told once upon a time to just suck it up and not let it worry them, but eventually they said no you know what **** this, I don't deserve to be treated like this, I'm not going to take it lying down anymore.

You don't deal with inequality or racism by ignoring it. Both sides.

Pulling them up on it is not in direct conflict with my suggestion. So long as doing so is not being used as a way to escalate the situation.

 

[Renegade]

Pulling them up on it is not in direct conflict with my suggestion. So long as doing so is not being used as a way to escalate the situation.

The way I interpeted your post, was that if the opposite starts occurring, don't escalate it, essentially ignore it, because people don't like being pulled up on their words. Is that a fair summation?